Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
|
|
|
Jan 29, 2014 - 09:51pm PT
|
re. the Jardine Traverse, the main one. We have done this before here.
Here is a closeup of the bolt layout on the small section:
give me a minute and I will post Bachar's photo from the right side.
Werner is avoiding our full story of the rage focused on Ray Jardine and how it kept building. Naturally; after all it has been many decades now. But quite a few of us joined Bachar in this fury; I think I for one had an early start and loathed the man before the halfway point of the seventh decade of that century. I could read the sort of character he had set up shop to be amongst us. His covert presumptions. Let's not forget how he hid his "Friends" cams (how ironic) his oh-so secret trick/inventions in his shirt on routes for many years, got his partners to swear to secrecy as well, even hanging off of them without telling. It goes on and on.
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
California
|
|
|
Jan 29, 2014 - 10:01pm PT
|
Shhh. Kennedy and Kruk are gonna hear about this traverse. If they do, watch out. Bolts will be chopped, chiseled holds ground and polished back to original impossibility.
After 30? years there is no smoking gun left to find in the Valley, just a smoking duck.
|
|
McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
|
|
|
Jan 29, 2014 - 10:22pm PT
|
I see the chiseled holds in the incipient seam but It's hard to tell what else has been cut. Anyway, this is interesting and thanks for the info. It looks fairly rad, though, and without too many bolts.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 29, 2014 - 10:31pm PT
|
Ray denied chiseling on the Nose.
But his belay partner confirmed him doing it all ... LOL
Why would he deny?
|
|
McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
|
|
|
Jan 29, 2014 - 10:33pm PT
|
Truth and reconciliation? Haha! What a trip having characters like that in our midst. Haha!
Anyway, the section is relatively short it seems. Man, it would have been hard to not do what he did.........I can see why he didn't ask. ;>) It's so close you could spit a mellon seed across there.
|
|
Rollover
climber
Gross Vegas
|
|
|
Jan 29, 2014 - 10:39pm PT
|
Just looked this up again yesterday..
Coincidence?
Look at Ray's partner.
RIP Mark Hesse
There are other partners of Ray's listed on his website
who frequent the Taco.
Pat Ament, Werner Braun, Jim Donini, Larry Hamilton, Rik Reider,
Mark Chapman, Rick Sylvester and Dan McClure to name just a few.
Ray definitely rubbed elbows with some Taco heavyweights.
Interesting history..
|
|
ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
|
|
|
Jan 29, 2014 - 10:43pm PT
|
Wasn't there a better version of that Bachar photo on another thread?
It was totally obvious - the chipping stood out more.
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
California
|
|
|
Jan 29, 2014 - 10:46pm PT
|
Possessed chisel. The chisel made me do it.
What is he story on epoxy on holds? There is some in Yosemite and Castle Rock SP.
|
|
zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
|
|
|
Jan 29, 2014 - 10:51pm PT
|
Well Herr Braun, I know there is an answer coming. I'll be patient.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 29, 2014 - 11:00pm PT
|
Phoenix pinned out too.
The finger locks are spaced perfectly .....
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2014 - 02:55am PT
|
Yosemite pinning / chiseling timeline
 5/1970 - New Dimensions - FA (with pendulum on p4) by Mark Klemens and Jim Bridwell.
People are divided on whether this has chipped holds (at cruxes of p1 and p4).
p1 chipped - Mark Chapman, "splitter"
p1 not chipped - John Bachar, le_bruce
p4 chipped - John Dill, Steve Grossman, Peter Haan
p4 not chipped - Mark Chapman, John Bachar, Kevin Worrall, le_bruce
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=832243&msg=833692#msg833692
8/1970 - Gripper - FA by Jim Bridwell, Bruce Kumph and Mark Klemens
"... a ton of weirdly enhanced foot and hand holds in the crux above the roof which you pretty much don’t even need." - Peter Haan.
Also noted by Kevin Worrall.
Why chip there? Maybe because they were climbing in stiff RR boots at that time, so having a foothold made a big difference.
See the link above.
1971 - Outer Limits - FA by Jim Bridwell and Jim Orey.
As I understand it, Bridwell sculpted a foothold on the traverse on p2. It's helpful but not really needed.
However, Bridwell also pinned out the horizontal crack on the p2 traverse, which makes a big difference. [see post below by Peter Haan]
8/71 - Wheat Thin - FA by Peter Haan and Jim Bridwell.
People sometimes describe this as chipping.
But the flake had a very thin/fragile edge that was going to break anyway,
so Bridwell broke it on rappel and also placed the bolts on rappel,
as it would not have held up if people placed bongs in it.
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/The-Birth-of-Wheat-Thin/t352n.html
10/74 - Geek Towers Left (Freestone) - FA by Jim Bridwell, Ron Kauk and Dale Bard.
As I've heard it, Bridwell used a piton to expand a flake (or enlarged it with repeated pin scarring - see Peter's post below) so his fingers would fit into the crack.
4/9/77 - Phoenix - Ray Jardine finds it, cleans it, and works on it for 4 days (alternating days on Owl Roof).
4/29/77 - Phoenix led with 3 rests
3 more days of work on Phoenix
5/9/77 - led Phoenix free from upper belay - FA Ray Jardine
5/13/77 - cleaned lower Phoenix (i.e. pin scarred it to create finger locks)
5 days of work on "Phoenix II"
5/20/77 - led "Phoenix II" free - FA Ray Jardine, John Lakey
4/7/79 - Jardine and Bard check out Dale's World's Hardest (later known as Dale's Pin Job)
4/13/79 - Jardine and Bard clean Dale's World's Hardest
As Werner noted, it was not pin scarred at this time.
1/24/80 - Jardine starts working to free climb the Nose
2/13/80 - Nose free to Sickle Ledge
3/14/80 - Nose free to Stovelegs (with chiseling as noted by Werner)
3/29/80 - Jardine investigated the new traverse
4/8/80 - Jardine placed bolts on the traverse. 27 ropes fixed by this time (makes it feasible to go up with many different partners)
4/26/80 - traverse free except for first move
5/2/80 - freed traverse (chiseling of knob as Werner has described must have been done between 4/26 and 5/2)
5/8/80 - freed to base of Great Roof, 38 ropes fixed at this point
5/17/80 - freed pitch above Great Roof (Pancake Flake and thin crack above)
5/20/80 - cleaned pitch above Camp 5 (later freed by Lynn Hill at 5.12d)
5/26/80 - pulled all (42) ropes down.
The next climbing in Jardine's log was 11/80 at Mt. Woodson.
I can only guess that after all that work on the Nose, he saw how hard The Great Roof was,
and how hard the pitch above Camp 5 was, and knew there was more hard stuff to come.
Probably he realized there was already too much chiseling, and decided he had to stop.
Although he climbed some more at Mt. Woodson, then some days in England in 1982,
Ray Jardine basically quit climbing after the 1980 Nose project.
His climbing log shows one last day in Yosemite (1982) - climbing Lunatic Fringe with Jenny.
Then he was off doing a very wide variety of travel adventures (at sea, ultralight backpacking, etc.) with Jenny for many years.
5/85 - Ray's Pin Job (far upper right on Cookie) - FA by Kurt Smith and Dave Hatchett.
Jardine never touched this route. Apparently it was named that way as a protest of the pinning of the lower Phoenix.
12/86 - Dale's Pin Job (formerly Dale's World's Hardest) - FA by John Bachar.
Sometime between 4/79 and 12/86, someone pin scarred it. Possibly Dale Bard.
[updated 1/31]
|
|
McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2014 - 03:46am PT
|
This last post makes it look like very little of the Jardine Traverse is actually chipped. Is it just that first knob?
|
|
Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2014 - 10:56am PT
|
Clint, to add: on the traverse on P2 of Outer Limits, Bridwell went up and pinned out the crack after failing to flash it on a FA attempt.
Also you forgot Gripper. On the flaring section above the chimney, Bridwell hammered in several highly obvious enhancements to knobs and edges prior to the FA. It turned out not to be necessary as the moves you actually do are somewhat stemming and more positive than they look and the path you take different than expected once you are moving through that section. Here the chiseling is just weird.
Owl roof the chockstone was installed.
|
|
McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2014 - 02:12pm PT
|
I was not aware of Jardine's big attempt to free the Nose. That was ahead of it's time. Was he still hiding the cams at that point? I was thinking last night that it was the cams that gave him the impetus to try and free the Nose. Could it be that all of the covert activity before that was for the Nose itself?
|
|
RyanD
climber
Squamish
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2014 - 02:47pm PT
|
The climbing log on Jardine's site is really interesting. Cool to see the progression & some of the ascent notes are really interesting, you can see why he was shrouded in controversy to this day. Also interesting to note how often he repeated routes.
Seems that what Ray did in the mid-late 70's in terms of ascent tactics (approaching top down, working routes to death) is what is commonplace with at least 90% of all top climbers of today. I had no idea he was so influential.
|
|
scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2014 - 03:19pm PT
|
How about New Dimensions?
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
California
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2014 - 03:23pm PT
|
So what is the difference between Jardine and Bridwell? It seems like politics. Jardine is a total.... and "Bridwell might have been heavy handed"???? Peter and Werner or others if you may explain this perception difference, please.
|
|
Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2014 - 03:29pm PT
|
Interesting thread.
a couple more ?'s
Is chipping OK:
Depending on who does it?
What time period it occurred?
Where it occurred?
Via other(aid) means of ascent?
I know there a couple rhetorical ?'s in there and I am mainly concerned with the first two..
Oh, and a bit more on topic..
An old employer gave me a sweet old poster of Jardine over the lip of a roof(I was told Rostrum) and he is placing a cam; he seems to be wearing about the same outfit he has on in the hangdog flyer pic. It has 'YOSEMITE' txt across the top. Cool pic but as mentioned above in another post critiquing his style, it looks like the rope is really tight, or hella tight...
|
|
bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2014 - 03:31pm PT
|
In retrospect chipping is never OK, but obviously it happens.
|
|
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2014 - 04:44pm PT
|
Ryan D,
I had no idea he was so influential.
In another thread I was ask, I believe by you, who I thought influenced the Way we climb Today the Most. I submitted Ray Jardine for friends, hangdogging, repointing and whatever.
You submitted your ol' bud Hen B. as the man who most influenced the way we climb today. Is your statement above a confession to the cluelessness you had on this issue?
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!