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Psilocyborg
climber
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Dec 19, 2018 - 09:38pm PT
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My take away from the article is that the author wants to kill all white men, bathe in their blood, and slowly consume thier corpses
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 20, 2018 - 05:59am PT
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Zardoz, I didn't say any number of men have creeped ME. While there have been some, what I'm referring to is witnessing it in general. I don't have to be personally targeted to know someone is creepstery, when they're doing it to someone else, whether that be an actual person posting here, a public figure, or even just the concept of "female."
I'm sorry you don't care for the message.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 20, 2018 - 06:27am PT
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Happie wrote:
I can't help wondering why don't people suggest men take "How not to be a rapist" course......  This is no joke.
Are we talking about toxic masculinity? Let's put Erin's abstruse argument against Alex aside for the moment. (And I don't think this constitutes thread drift.)
Militant feminism may not exhibit a unifying goal of the sexes as its first action, but it's no wonder this sort of divisive feminist anger and angst perpetuates, Re: Erin Monahan.
..............................................................
Whatever might be said about the source and the manipulation of statistics, definitions, and variables in reportage, start here:
https://www.nsvrc.org/statistics
Yeah, I've cherry picked just a few, I invite the reader to get in there and parse it. Or find another source. References are provided by NSVRC.
Sexual Assault in the United States
One in five women and one in 71 men will be raped at some point in their lives
91% of victims of rape and sexual assault are female, and nine percent are male
Annually, rape costs the U.S. more than any other crime ($127 billion), followed by assault ($93 billion), murder ($71 billion), and drunk driving, including fatalities ($61 billion)
Child Sexual Abuse
One in four girls and one in six boys will be sexually abused before they turn 18 years old
96% of people who sexually abuse children are male, and 76.8% of people who sexually abuse children are adults
Only 12% of child sexual abuse is ever reported to the authorities
Crime Reports
The prevalence of false reporting is low — between 2% and 10%.
I'm no sociologist, but I can read. Toxic masculinity: Erin's angst may be a symptom. Perhaps I'll get into the nearly ubiquitous trend of rape by invading & occupying forces during wartime.
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couchmaster
climber
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Dec 20, 2018 - 02:21pm PT
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It was? Slaydies rule!
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Roots
Mountain climber
Redmond, Oregon
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Dec 20, 2018 - 02:47pm PT
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I think she [blogger] is just young and impressionable....
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Rattlesnake Arch
Social climber
Home is where we park it
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Dec 20, 2018 - 02:59pm PT
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Good post, DMT...Scary time for boys.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 20, 2018 - 04:03pm PT
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Larry, thank you.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Dec 21, 2018 - 08:11am PT
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A nice contrast to getting caught up in toxic masculinity.
Mountain Biking's Bumpy Road to Gender Equality
After her win at the UCI Mountain Bike World Championships, Kate Courtney noticed a shift in how people talk about women in sports
On September 8, 2018, during her first year as an elite racer, 23-year-old Kate Courtney won the UCI Mountain Bike World Championships in Lenzerheide, Switzerland, ending a 17-year gold medal drought for the United States. Reflecting on her win, Courtney noticed a shift in her interactions with fans—particularly male fans. Here’s the story, in her words.
I’ve made a living out of being uncomfortable. I ride through the rain, tumble over rocks, and push through rugged climbs laden with roots, ruts, and boulders. In order to get better, I have to take risks, and I have to suffer. I thrive in these moments of discomfort, because I know they ultimately lead to the next level. But there is one type of discomfort I have never gotten used to, one that can’t be controlled by putting my head down and working harder. It’s the discomfort that usually comes from interacting with male fans at my competitions.
I’ve received marriage proposals and many unsolicited observations on my appearance. Two years ago, after I won the national championships, a group of teenage boys shouted in unison, “You’re cute!” I had just won nationals; I was covered in dirt and sweat, my fishtail braid fraying from exertion and elation. This outburst told me that when they watched me race, some weren’t paying attention to the skill I had spent the past decade cultivating. I was a lot of things that day, including many more powerful adjectives than “cute.”
Such interactions have long been the norm for women across all sports. Even in mountain biking—where women race the same course, for the same amount of time, and for the same amount of prize money as men—female racers are all too familiar with receiving these types of comments. Even if the talk isn’t explicitly centered around a woman’s body, her accomplishments are often qualified by gender. She didn’t just win nationals, she won women’s nationals. She doesn’t ride well, she rides well for a woman.
This year, however, I experienced a distinct and heartening change in the way people interacted with me. After crossing the line at the world championships, and in several instances since, conversations about my riding have shifted from a preoccupation with my looks, instead focusing on my grit, determination, and ability to overcome obstacles—the kind of qualities that drive all athletes, regardless of gender.
https://www.outsideonline.com/2373091/kate-courtney-mountain-biking-gender-equality?fbclid=IwAR1IHTk5YPRCjXZrcNkQhWVafhlUdQnRRpRiPEQ0LtYvTH8N7pyhdPaUTw4
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dec 21, 2018 - 09:36am PT
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The challenge Kate Courtney faces per "gender equality" is a tricky business from both a male and female perspective. For starters, Kate is not merely "cute." She's stunning, a plain fact that she and her sponsors have capitalized on per how she is marketed in social media. She could pedal her bike down the face of Half Dome and it wouldn't change her looks nor yet the fact that both men and women find her physically attractive. The rub is that she's also a champion adventure athlete and wants to be celebrated as a champion first and foremost. Which is only fair. And also true. She IS a champion.
The challenge is to come up with some constructive suggestions on how males might expand their focus, learning to emphasize her skill above and beyond her looks. A strategy that is doomed to fail is to try and shame males who find her cute on Instagram, and in races as well, the implication being we should minimize or forget the cute factor and focus, instead, on the skill, at least once the race is on. This is unlikely to happen, for better or worse.
One can totally understand the disappointment of someone who has put in the work, won a championship and instead of being celebrated as a sports hero, is merely posited as "cute." This clearly demeans the performance aspect. How to change men's thinking in this regards is possible, but I'm not sure how. Shame and criticism is simply not an effective means of transformation. In fact you'll get push back most every time. My sense of it is till people can get past ranting about how others are behaving towards them - which is a first step in the process - not much will change.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dec 21, 2018 - 12:19pm PT
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No one's ever accused me of being "cute" LOL, but thanks for the notion, no matter how off base.
Point is, the initial outrage over injustices is what brings attention to a problem in the first instance. As the audience goes through varying stages of denial and deflection, the subject is dragged into the light and after enough people take a sober look at the truth, we start groping toward change. We can this at play in the Me-Too saga, of which this thread is a sideshow. Later, people rattle in fits and starts past the rancor and guff (often justified, at least to purge the outrage), and start looking at things differently. But none of this is fast.
Like most things, we all want to satisfy the impulse to immediately gratify the need for results. None are forthcoming, of course, but that's how we humans roll.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 21, 2018 - 01:14pm PT
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...till people can get past ranting about how others are behaving towards them - which is a first step in the process - not much will change.
Because that has just worked out so well for the last hundred or so years?
There was a time women were legally held in check and if they didn't come under the care of some man, their options were very - very - few. Even the Aunt Mabels who lived in some house on the squire's property were seen as a burden.
A woman was publicly shunned if she was divorced so few years ago I remember "those women." We weren't eve supposed to play with the children of "those women."
When we began working as a career choice, we smiled and pretended it was all just a joke, those fanny pinches and innuendos. Because if you put a foot down, you got punished.
Even TODAY, while I am spending tie in Quartzsite as a member of the gem and mineral club, I find myself simply "smiling" to much of the old male remarks, because it's just not worth the hassle of trying to explain why tugging my hair and joking about my worth as a female is inappropriate.
Ranting and shaming is probably actually going to be the catalyst that DOES bring about change. But only when men start shaming their friends for the behavior. Is it REALLY that hard to say "Dude, come on already." when the friend watches a woman's ass as she walks past and says "I'd sure like to tap that!"
Interesting juxtaposition - Maybe 8 years ago I stopped a guy from taking a clearly intoxicated woman down to the water where I work, about 10am. He said "You sure know how to ruin a guy's Friday night."
Looking back, I did the wrong thing. I should have yes gotten them to leave, but I should have called the police and reported what was happening. I don't know what happened to that woman after they left the property.
Anyway, when I told the story later, most men over the ago of about 50 cracked jokes similar to the "ruined things for him" remark, whereas the younger men said "Woah - you probably stopped a date rape. I'm glad you weren't hurt. Please, if something like this EVER happens again, call me. Here's my number. I will get my ass down here to help you deal with it, no matter what time of night it is."
Times they ARE achanging,but some are coming along kicking and screaming, and some just won't make it and will die off eventually.
So - how many of you guys with male children have had "the talk" with your sons, explaining what is inappropriate? What do those talks entail? Because it's NOT enough to explain to your daughters that THEY have to keep themselves safe. Teach your sons how to be a safe friend, for crying out loud.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Dec 21, 2018 - 03:47pm PT
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The reality is that a lot of women are harassed, and sometimes physically abused. Even joking, this is not OK. To add to the mt biking example above the woman who just won the female world soccer player of the year was asked by the presenter if she would twerk dance for him right after he gave her the award. It's ridiculous. No way would a man be subjected to that sh#t.
That said, I do think it's a minority of men that do most of this. And that painting the entire male race with a "toxic masculinity" brush, or implying that whites are more guilty, doesn't help the cause.
But men, if you see this in other guys(i.e. the President) don't put up with it. Say something. If someone said something like this to my daughter, you had better believe that I would.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Dec 21, 2018 - 04:04pm PT
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No doubt there are too many men who are just bores...especially with too much booze.
Men noticing the looks and charms of femininity is hard wired into the species.
I've always loved smart and strong women...understanding that real strength is between the ears.
On respecting women for their accomplishments, I think it starts with how one's father treats one's mother...and also the respect that a good mother commands.
A well developed sense of humor from all involved is helpful.
For the ladies I would ask: Are there any examples of toxic femininity?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dec 21, 2018 - 04:04pm PT
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Ranting and shaming is probably actually going to be the catalyst that DOES bring about change.
I stick by my guns that shaming is not a constructive way to bring about change. In most cases I have seen, it is a kind of returning-the-favor impulse, and that usually brings about pushback and resistance. Again, sounding off about something is a fist step that brings attention to flashpoint issues. The louder people sound off, the more our ears perk up. So as an initial step, sure - rant on. But in my experience, a sea change only happens when people understand and believe in a better way of doing and thinking.
For example, I often see people rigging suspect anchors out at the crags, or doing sketchy things. And this in some cases is life and death, so it's no simple matter. Suggestions are welcome if I am civil, as opposed to calling a person a knucklehead and ranting about this or that. That is, a personal attack on the person, rather than the issue at hand, is less constructive regarding having the person rig a safer whatever it is.
With feminist issues, owing I believe to the degree and time of abusive and destructive behavior, most of the issues are packed with emotional dynamite. My contention is that often, the whole shebang has to blow up before we can start putting the pieces back together in a more enlightened way. That's never going to be pretty, any more than the abuse was pretty. It's just a matter of how long we want to stay ugly with the whole shebang.
Per labels like men and women, I know a lot of females who like being called girls rather then women, providing the context is friendly and respectful. Girls, perhaps, carry a feeling of youth, not kids. But tastes differ in this regards, and if there is a uniform way or universal "best label," I haven't head it yet. Context is everything. You wouldn't call a woman on CNN a "girl," for obvious reasons. As much as we'd like a one-size-fits-all solution to these complex issues, we aren't likely to find one that suits everyone.
Perhaps it boils down to the issue of a personal attack. Once that gets going as an MO, the response is often a counter attack, and round and round we go.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 21, 2018 - 04:17pm PT
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Happie also brought this issue to the fore:
It's pretty standard, when someone mentions ST as a resource, that it's suggested, if female, to use an avatar that is non-specific to a gender, and to give no indication that you are female. I have heard people say this dozens of times.
There are women here, FWIW. You just may not realize it, or they may choose not to post. It's just not worth the hassle that comes from being a voice here, for the majority of women.
I have no doubt about any of this. And yes I understand this tactic. But clearly this is not ideal. In my opinion, we'd all be much better off if women's voices were heard here, as in other places, and readily identified as those of women. Do we really want women hiding behind cloaks?
I don't know what the way forward is, but just the opposite from staying in hiding needs to happen. Women need to proclaim themselves as women, and present their perspectives and their input as women, not as genderless, gender-neutral avatars.
Please correct me if I'm wrong in this assertion: Supertopo is essentially ground zero for trad climbing on the Internet. There are women doing fantastic, inspirational things as trad climbers and in the mountains these days, and it's no wonder we rarely hear from them here. I applaud those women who do occasionally step forward, stick their necks into Supertopo, and share what they are up to, whether by representation of thought or action.
Yes, I understand the risks and I understand avoidance of public expression. But until that starts happening, as long as so many women feel they need to hide in the dark when expressing their opinions on a public forum such as this, or choose to avoid it altogether, we are literally still in the dark ages.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 21, 2018 - 04:39pm PT
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Very little, until Erin Monahan made it so.
Whether intentionally or by default, she trolled us, and now we are choosing to make a meaningful discussion out of it.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dec 21, 2018 - 05:07pm PT
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What Roy is saying. No question this is basically a straight, white, aging male audience, few of which, I reckon, would not applaud female intervention to liven and expand the dialogue. I suspect the fear of being shamed and chided keep many anonymous. Who needs the guff? But it does show us what a closed loop looks like. The question is: How do we change it? What proactive steps might be taken to diversify the platform?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Dec 21, 2018 - 06:36pm PT
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I don’t know. Rant away with the blame and shame and you can attract a lot of controversy and attention and open up a dialogue. But as mentioned that’s going to turn off a lot of people who may want to help or change.
Alex put himself out there revealing his short comings and it made it a better movie. He could have just said let’s only make it about climbing and it wouldn’t have been nearly as powerful. I think it’s a cheap shot to attack someone so personally who is putting themselves out there. The movie portrayed many months in the development of their relationship, Alex’s development as a person, and Sannis development as a climber and I guess some people don’t realize that. Of course Alex telling Sanni he loved her as he hiked of El Cap was the climax of that story. For someone who never said I love you that’s huge. But it was done pretty low key and could have slipped past some people.
I have had the talk with my two sons multiple times about respecting and appreciating women and it’s been interesting. I would think their environment (strong mother and grandmothers) would have led them to be aware and respectful. But society has definitely had some bad influences on them. I’m not perfect but definitely think men and women are equals overall, men are typically better at some things and women are typically better at some things.
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Trump
climber
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Dec 21, 2018 - 09:30pm PT
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It’s not like ranting and shaming helped me win the presidency. Oh wait, it is like that. That’s a bummer, innit?
I think when we think that we’ve figured this human thing out, we probably should figure some more. I admire that we try, nonetheless.
Thanks for those stats Tarbuster. 1 in 4 girls. That sh#t is crazy. And African American girls like my daughter are at twice the risk.
I go help out a few hours a week in her elementary school classroom, and look around, and count the kids, and think WTF? Seriously? It’s hard to face. And I expect it’s even harder to live with.
But the kids in our privileged comfy classroom probably aren’t the ones that end up in those stats, so really, how big of a problem is it? For me?
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