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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 11, 2018 - 04:20pm PT
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without hearing an engine
This is relevant to the discussion how?
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Chewybacca
Trad climber
Kelly Morgan, Whitefish MT
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Jan 11, 2018 - 06:34pm PT
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If I were King of USA I would ban bikes, pack stock, livestock grazing, and in places with adequate predators, I'd ban hunting in designated wilderness.
Wilderness designation is primarily about preservation, not recreation.
That said, regrettably I am not King, and I understand the importance of compromise. So, while I am against bikes in designated wilderness I will not flip out if they are allowed.
I will flip out if people try to allow motor bikes, ATV's etc. We already have more than enough places were we can play with our motorized toys.
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 11, 2018 - 06:39pm PT
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Wilderness designation is primarily about preservation, not recreation.
Then why not ban hiking, too?
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Jan 11, 2018 - 06:45pm PT
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Modest use of wheeled conveyance, no big deal. Full blown Mt. Biking, big deal. It's like the 2nd amendment allowing tanks, strykers or howitzer cannons for personal use in a city. I'm confident that if McClintock's bill get's enacted, the battle in the courts would prolong implementation for decades. The Rule Making procedure alone would take a decade at least for each managing agency, let alone individual areas. Yosemite has had bikes prohibited on all trails (Wilderness or not) forever. Not gonna change.
Mt. Biker's in favor of Trump/McClintock and friends, don't get excited. Your proposal would be on hold to open wilderness trails to you until at least 2028 - 2038 while America sorts through the details.
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Chewybacca
Trad climber
Kelly Morgan, Whitefish MT
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Jan 11, 2018 - 06:46pm PT
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"Why not ban hiking too"
Because that is politically unrealistic.
What do you think wilderness designation means?
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 11, 2018 - 06:56pm PT
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What do you think wilderness designation means?
That question depends highly on the area and the people who pushed for the designation for that area.
I know from experience that the mtbike prohibition made the issue highly contentious for the proposed Lake Waldo Wilderness designation. Ultimately, the reason it failed was largely due to mtbikers.
I agree that changing the interpretation or wording of the law isn't going to allow mtbikers to go wherever they want. Hopefully it will allow it for areas where it makes sense. There are a lot of wilderness areas which were declared whole cloth without considering how the lands had been used nor how necessary the wilderness protection was.
I'm an environmentalist believe it or not, but I am because the environment benefits humanity not because I bow to some God of environmentalism. I would love for there to be a national or state push to improve the way water is used in this country (by making a market for it), and to allow salmon runs to return. I don't see mtbikes causing much harm to the environment in a lot of these wilderness areas, and that includes some areas in Yosemite.
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Jan 11, 2018 - 09:19pm PT
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I don't see mtbikes causing much harm to the environment in a lot of these wilderness areas, and that includes some areas in Yosemite.
Your opinion noted. As noted upthread, except for old roads or fire breaks, YNP will remain "mtbikes" free, president shithole be damned!
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F
climber
away from the ground
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Jan 11, 2018 - 10:42pm PT
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There is no real law enforcement in true wilderness.
Do what you want, respect other users, f*#k the tool.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 11, 2018 - 10:58pm PT
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Ken, the fact is you do not possess the universal knowledge you think you do, regardless of what you want to "testify." Good luck.
I know that I have spend a lot of years working in wilderness areas, talking to the land managers, and patrolling as a backcountry ranger.
What defines your expertise, since you bring it up? Do you have any credibility at all, or are you just another tweeker?
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Jan 12, 2018 - 09:01am PT
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Shamelessly stolen from a similar thread on a different activity forum I frequent:
The muddled thinking in this thread is indicative of why we keep spinning our wheels. Half of you are just scared of change, most have completely unrealistic perceptions of what wilderness is, hardly any realize that some are using Wilderness commercially, and have steadily locked out other users by a variety of means over the years.
I realize most of you will never have an opportunity to actually observe Wilderness being used on a daily basis, but if you did you would be appalled that for a few heavy impact users it is business as usual, while the rest of us light users are locked out so it can continue. You are being screwed as you mouth your reverent words about the fantasy of pristine wilderness. The only pristine wilderness is the stuff that is so rough and remote it can't yet be exploited commercially.
The more recreational users in Wilderness the more protected it will be, and the more secure. So it's time to wake up... unused Wilderness can be commercialized with the stroke of a pen if necessary. Get as many recreational users out there as possible, maybe it will shine some more light on what is really going on.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Jan 12, 2018 - 09:28pm PT
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In the real wilderness, you aren’t top predator.
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 13, 2018 - 02:28pm PT
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One bike track across a pristine meadow would take years to dissolve. Points that footprints do as well are lost on me, sorry.
Do you think that mtbikers stray off the trail more than hikers do? I certainly don't think so.
The whole hikers vs bikers thing is a bit lost on me. They both can create poot trails, so why give one group more scrutiny than the other?
There was this, I don't know what to call him...I guess fat idiot, who decided to make a name for himself making his own mtbike trail in USFS land. This wasn't wilerness or anything, but land which every few decades gets clear cut. Hoo boy did he get in trouble! The USFS basically told him to undo his trail or face major felony charges.
I think the concern over mtbikers making their own trails in wilderness is overblown. I see hikers do it all the time, however. Maybe a shoot-on-sight policy for those who stray off the trail would abate your concerns.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Jan 13, 2018 - 02:38pm PT
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Ballo... Interesting that the USFS went after that MTB. guy...Around here the motor heads go off trail often creating new trails , trashing resources and using single track reserved for Mtb. use ...Never hear of the moto heads getting popped...I think the MTB crowds are the red headed step child of Forest Service user groups...Follow the money ... The ATV crowd has more money and influence than the mtb. crowd...
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jan 13, 2018 - 04:46pm PT
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There is no real law enforcement in true wilderness.
Do what you want, respect other users, f*#k the tool.
That's a great motto. Not.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 13, 2018 - 09:42pm PT
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Then why didn't you simply say that, instead of asserting that you have some universal knowledge about cycling and wilderness? Thank you for your tacit admission that you do not.
I'm sorry that this has devolved into personal attacks. I have posted what I do many times on these threads, and I don't think anyone cares to read it more than once. BTW, if you want to have a civil conversation, don't start with your own attacks, because it's very predictable what will be coming your direction.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 13, 2018 - 09:45pm PT
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Bicycles are not part of the natural world. People are. Even horses, goats, llamas and like pack animals. Dogs.
But I never dream of a beautiful sunset over bike handles. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen that type of "nature" photography (which will be sure to bring them out!)
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 13, 2018 - 09:47pm PT
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Stc supports local land managers having the ability to implement original inent of the wildnerness act. It was never intended to ban bicycles.
Mtn bikes didn't exist. But similar mechanical devices did...the wheelbarrow. Banned.
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Todd Eastman
Social climber
Putney, VT
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Jan 14, 2018 - 05:31am PT
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Applejax, what is your position regarding allowing ATV access into Wilderness?
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Jan 14, 2018 - 07:56am PT
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Gack, why can't we keep the conversation reasonable? No need for the attacks. I don't agree with Ken, but it is right to have an opinion. I am not saying he is innocent in the context of the attacks, to be honest I haven't read every single reply in this thread, I just don't think the language I am seeing above is anything but creating further divisiveness.
Ken, please take up the offer a MTB ride with Mike. I bet you will be surprised and it will definitely soften the edge on your stance.
DMT: I love you man, but saying a foot path across a meadow is any different (presumed somehow better) than a single MTB track is just a personal thing. Damage wise, there is no difference. They will both "repair" themselves at the same rate and both will be completely invisible in roughly the same time.
The other piece is the fear about MTBers going off trail. IMO, and I "care for" a pretty large swath of public land near my house, is exactly opposite of this. Hikers go anywhere and do anything, typically with their dog in tow. Hiking some of the local more popular hiking trails is pretty eye opening. There are lots of braided trails, dog sh#t, human sh#t, and trash clearly deposited by hikers. Hike Zim Zim for an example.
Conversely, local MTB trail are most commonly immaculately maintained, pristinely clean, and managed. I can honestly say I have never seen a MTB cross-country'ing it (without a trail) on any local trail. I am not saying it doesn't ever happen, but MTB'ers usually "want" a trail.
Also, given the history of not being allowed in wilderness over the last few decades, I guarantee you the MTBers will be the most sensitive user group to their presence for the near foreseeable future.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jan 14, 2018 - 08:42am PT
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What about riding off trail, on a carpet of pine needles!!!
Wide open roller coasters for miles on end if it's open forest.
or compacted pumice, rock slabs, water courses, wind blown Mt. slopes
No trace, no impact, no trails to maintain....
Too elite, must not let the masses in on the action.
will never be acceptable to many.
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