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zBrown
Ice climber
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Dec 19, 2017 - 07:20pm PT
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As you will most likely recall:
The itsy bitsy spider crawled up the water spout
What followed?
Along came Jones and took out the trash?
Close, but no
Young white punks on dope, mama & dada live in Hollywood?
Sorry, back to the stacks
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JLyons
Sport climber
Cali
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Dec 19, 2017 - 08:03pm PT
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“I’m a doctor!”
“Here’s a naked selfie of me in the mirror!”
LOL
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Dec 19, 2017 - 08:18pm PT
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To which the doctor responded?
"will this thread and it's quaint display of insight and humility, be the one that pushes the ST over 2.5M?"
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 19, 2017 - 09:58pm PT
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Too many feminists, and even normal people, ; ), think only males can be sexists
In fact, the reality that so few sexual violence perpetrators ever wind up answering for their actions
Maybe, but a lot more men answer for their actions than do women who lie about being harassed, groped, or worse, because women are basically never punished for that. More men are falsely accused and punished than women who make false accusations are punished, even when the intent of their lies is to extort, or to seek revenge for some unrelated event.
False accusations can be more destructive to a man's life than actual unwanted sexual aggressions are to a woman, depending on the circumstances, but while intersectional feminists claim to fight for equality across gender, racial, ethnic, and income divides, they drop the ball when it comes to falsely accused males.
There is rarely equal treatment of men and women where this is concerned. It seems lately in American culture that a woman can make a claim, without evidence, and the man is guilty until proven innocent.
This is in the context of a career professional who does research in the area, a member of our community, being recognized for her efforts.
I find it offensive, considering the half-truths and outright lies contained within, with no citations as to "facts" (because there are none)
Basically an attack on Callie's intellect. He's telling us what feminists think, when he has no clue. He claims that feminists are totally biased, when he seems to know none. He then speaks for all of western culture, which he certainly does not represent. That's just his first post.
HFCS, there is one for you. I don't have the time to waste nor the inclination to wade through the morass of his posts. You cite his questions, however, if you look carefully, they are only rhetorical questions, which are actually disguised digs. He presents no links, no evidence, no quotes. He is entitled to his opinion, but so am I.
He has made it clear that he has seen none of this harassment in his life. In other words, he has no experience. As Tut suggested, I've done many, many rape exams, and provided professional services to many, many survivors. I have my opinions, too, but they are based upon experience in the field, not speculation or conclusions from reading PEOPLE magazine.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 20, 2017 - 06:28am PT
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Who IS kingtut?
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unlocked gait
Gym climber
the range
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Dec 20, 2017 - 08:02am PT
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i'm sorry warberl.
you caught a nasty case of systemic ignorance
in some past life.
work it out, man.
bounce your hateful shite off us, more developed spirits.
we've capacity and endurance.
though i could use a recharge of patience.
warner? you know any prayers or chants
that channel patience?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2017 - 11:35am PT
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WaPost:
An ‘E! News’ anchor found out she earns half what her male co-host makes. So she quit.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Dec 20, 2017 - 12:19pm PT
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Only reminding feminists that false accusations have serious and damaging effects also.
I really don’t know where you get this need for mansplaining or that generic women or feminists need “reminded” of this. Perhaps you’re just being chivalrous and looking out for our ignorance.
As I said on another thread, as the mother of a 25 year old handsome and outgoing young man in a cut throat business world I worry about false accusations. I also find unwanted sexual abuse, harassment, etc etc to be demeaning, deragortory and inexcusable this day in age. The two issues are not mutually exclusive in being able to have mindful thoughts and dialogue.
Is this where I act all humble and do a holly, gee, Kevin, I so appreciate your reminder. My addled female brain just can’t process complex social issues. You da Man.
Susan
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Dec 20, 2017 - 01:34pm PT
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where a feminist organization
Only reminding feminists that false accusations have serious and damaging effects also.
Words Matter.
Now it’s gone from “ feminists” to “feminist organization”.
Clever.
Susan
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Dec 20, 2017 - 02:16pm PT
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Same question with "feminist"
Try reading about Susan Estrich who defended Robert ailes
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/09/11/style/susan-estrich-feminist-roger-ailes-fox-news.html?referer=https://www.google.com/
What is more telling is your attempt at sleight of hand by changing the subject from my original charge of
**who the f*#k do you think you are to remind anyone of anything**
to challenging me to come up with examples to support your contentions.
I’m not a big fan of mansplaining, especially about how a woman should feel about something.
Do you need a footstool to get off that high horse of yours?
Susan
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Dec 20, 2017 - 03:39pm PT
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That doesn't really count . (Because she’s a lawyer who has a huge feminist background)
Oh, geez, Kevin, you’re right!!! It doesn’t count. Thanks for “reminding” me. Duh. If it doesn’t fit into your POV well then it’s just not real. What a wonderful way to drift through life.
You bring a smile to my face you’re so desperate to be right.
Susan.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Dec 20, 2017 - 03:47pm PT
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I understand the argument Kevin- it's the same argument related to affirmative action and reverse discrimination in a sense.
Here's a simple calculus:
1. Are the inequities, abuses and lack of legal protection quantifiable with data?
2. Does that data prove that the inequities are institutional and widespread?
Harassment and abuse towards woman is definitely institutional in segments of our society which is not the case with men.
To Kevin's point- on an individual basis, harassed and abused men should get equal protection.
The voices that warn of an overcorrection related to socially charged, popular movements ultimately help calm the waters and should not be lumped with the deniers.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Dec 20, 2017 - 04:23pm PT
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2,500,000 - 2,472,832 = Still a wayz to go.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 28, 2017 - 10:01am PT
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The NYTimes ran an interesting editorial last week which I think is relevant to what this thread has become,
Women's Lives Cut Short
I provide this article as a starting point to the point implied up by Warbler regarding the ways men and women manipulate each other to get what they want. He was addressing the issue of false reporting of sexual harassment (and sexual assault), both actual harassment and assault and accusations of those behaviors can be viewed as coercive.
It is worth considering what is being coerced for.
Men seem to coerce women for sex, women for resources (largely economic). Because men, by and large, possess more of the economic wealth, that alone can be the source of coercive behavior. Imagine if the economic resources were equally distributed among men and women.
Men also possess attributes of physical strength that exceed those of women (as Warbler never tires of describing) and this attribute is used to coerce women into giving a man what he wants, the threat is bodily harm.
Now it would seem that access to firearms would "equalize" this, but the statistics don't seem to support that idea.
Given the deadly nature of these interactions, even if on the fringes, they would seemingly frame the discussion here (as it has evolved). In the extreme, men are willing to use deadly force to get sex from women, women are willing to use false testimony to get money from men.
There is an inherent asymmetry in these "transactions" that is clear to see, and essentially exists in degrees to the workplace, that is, the overly simplified motives for these bad behaviors remain the same.
You'd think by now men would have a very good idea of what "consensual" activity is, and women what "merit based reward" is...
...women do seem to have a good grasp of "merit based reward," it is odd that men have trouble understanding that "consensual" does not include coercion as part of the reward.
It is the subject of study, to establish the factual basis (as far as the data supports) of these assertions, many of which have been the subject of Callie's research activities.
She would seem to be an excellent candidate for these times.
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Lennox
climber
in the land of the blind
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Dec 28, 2017 - 11:39am PT
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coercion
Improper use (or threat of improper use) of authority, economic power, physical force, or other such advantage, by a party to compel another to submit to the wishes of its wielder. Agreements entered into, or testaments signed, under coercion are considered illegal and invalid. See also duress and undue influence.
http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/coercion.html
From the study:
Offered or implied rewards if someone engaged in sexual behavior? Or treated someone badly if he or she didn’t?
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Lennox
climber
in the land of the blind
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Dec 28, 2017 - 11:52am PT
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That one question has within it the implication that the harasser is abusing a power differential.
The study does not address the great likelihood that the harassers are using a power differential to shield themselves from any repercussions when they exhibit the other behaviors listed.
Told sexual stories or jokes that some might consider offensive?
Made remarks that some might consider sexist or offensive?
Displayed, used or distributed materials (like videos or cartoons) that some might consider sexist or suggestive?
Made attempts to draw someone into a discussion of sexual matters even though the person did not want to join in?
Made gestures or used body language of a sexual nature, which embarrassed or offended someone?
Continued to ask someone for dates, drinks or dinner even though he or she said no?
Made attempts to establish a romantic sexual relationship with someone despite that person’s efforts to discourage it?
Touched someone in a way that made him or her feel uncomfortable?
Made uninvited attempts to stroke, fondle or kiss someone?
Offered or implied rewards if someone engaged in sexual behavior? Or treated someone badly if he or she didn’t?
If your boss is trying to stroke or fondle you, the suggestion of a threat vs. reward is always implied if not overt, and would still constitute coercion.
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Lennox
climber
in the land of the blind
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Dec 28, 2017 - 11:58am PT
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“Weaksauce” is your argument?
That is weaksauce.
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