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ECF
Big Wall climber
Ridgway CO
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We can lead by example.
If we are lucky they will follow us on Twitter.
Ken Nichols doesn’t seem that crazy now, does he?
You punks get off my lawn!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dry tooling any climb that does not have a significant ammount of ice on it is what Jim said.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Steep drytooling is not "doing pull ups on tools." It involves a great amount of technique, core strength, upper body strength, is a great way to train for harder routes in the mountains and is plenty exciting when you have sharp knives strapped to your feet and you are trying to stick a sketchy tool placement to a tiny edge above. Long runouts on this terrain are not practical because of a lot of sharp objects you have on you, so even though yes the bolts are usually close together, it is still plenty exciting when you can snap an ankle during a 6 foot fall.
The world does not revolve around any of us, so while some think it is beyond them to climb on such terrain, it doesn't mean everyone else should stop. No one should make anyone else climb or not climb slab, sport, offwidths, aid or any other way to conquer the useless. All of us alter the environment in one way or another when we go out into the backcountry.
Jim, take into consideration the impact of expeditions to ranges like the Karokoram, like one you were on last year. Only the amount of human sh#t and toilet paper left in the backcountry will be more than the amount left by all the Ouray craggers over the last 10 years. How many porters does it take to carry bouldering pads, giant tents and power drills? Have you talked with the Hubers about why do they use powerdrills on 7000M peaks? Are you ok with it? I personally don't give a rat's ass about what they use (but do beliebe they are bringing the difficulties of the mountain down. Read the Latok Mountain Profile in the Alpinist for more detail), but wonder why you choose to participate in these giant expeditions that are not at all without a sin and talk down the way some people climb in chossy crags. Seems like hypocrisy.Going with people that manufacture routes on the mountains you claim to be godly.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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what about Quincy Quarry in Boston...have the routes there been manufactured? Not when I climbed there in the late '80s. The cracks were very thin and slippery. As a slate quarry, all the cracks and ledges were sharp and narrow. Footholds required tenacity. Finger "ledges" were thin as can be and hurt like hell. Imagine glacier polish granite with narrow sharp cracks and tiny knife edge ledges. Does anyone know what's happened since?
loose boulder into a belay ledge using a bottle jack, a scissors jack, a 5 foot prybar, and some wooden wedges. If it took that much machinery to dislodge, how can you call it a loose boulder ? Or were you being facetious?
Leave it to Doug Robinson to get it clearly and concisely, so many years ago.
Thanks to Hartouni for posting this:
Technology is imposed on the land, but technique means conforming to the landscape. They work in opposite ways, one forcing a passage while the other discovers it. The goal of developing technique is to conform to the most improbable landscape by means of the greatest degree of skill and boldness supported by the least equipment.
Great Pacific Iron Works 1975 catalog
I'll argue that you get far more satisfaction from working out the free moves and nut/cam/rock/tree protection than whacking away with hammer and chisel. It's true that when Robbins started out to eliminate Harding's bolt ladder on El Cap (was it the Dawn Wall?) he eventually stopped in awe of the amazing line and retreated.
So in this 21st century I say "manufactured" climbs can and should be avoided. Unless, perhaps a bolt is essential for sustaining the climber's life. And the climb is aesthetically worth it.
The old ethic of the 70's if you can't climb it clean now, improve until you can or let someone else do it. Which of course leads to the circular argument we start with.
And neebee.....awesome contribution!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Vitaly, i ice climb and mixed climb but I also realize some of the impacts. If a climb does not have any ice on it then news flash, its a Rock climb not a Mixed climb. If you climb it with tools you scratch the piss out of it and trash a future rock climb. lots of great crossover climbs out there. Repentance @ cathedral ledge in NH is an awsome ice and mixed line. it is also a summer rock climb. It is scratched to piss. I am ok with that because it is a Much better ice climb than rock climb. on the other hand if you dry tool a rock climb that has no ice on it you are just trashing a rock climb to feed you ego....
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2017 - 04:24pm PT
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Vitaliy....perhaps you should come on one of these “giant” expeditions and see for yourself. You may recall that I offered you and a couple of your friends pictures, beta and help with outfitting. After initial ohs and ahs about the objective I showed you...nothing but silence. There were Three climbers on Huber’s team, hardly a giant expedition in the old style.
They were planning on going alpine style either on the North Ridge or on a new line out on the face...depending on conditions. If they opted for the face the plan was to bring portaledges and a power drill. The reasoning was that there were a few (very few) short overhanging walls where they could have bivys safe from avalanches, hence the ledges and drill. The distance, technical difficulty and exposure to avalanches between those sheltered spots definetly puts this climb in the realm of super FAST, skilled climbers who are not faint of heart. It turns out that the two climbers picked by Thomas were faint of heart and, when the weather window finally arrived, they wouldn’t go on the route. That is why Huber is going back this year.
As to leaving a ton of trash. I was there and we left a clean camp. Huber is a committed conservationist as well as someone who contributes time and money to help the Balti people.
You sound a little like Trump defenders and their “what about” tactics. Yo Jim you criticize chipping holds but “what about” going on a trip where there is a power drill. I fail to see how you equate the two.
You may also consider that my thread was meant to be a dialogue to discuss the issue of manufacturing routes. Everyone was invited to voice their own opinions and a wide range of views were brought forth.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Vitaliy....perhaps you should come on one of these “giant” expeditions and see for yourself. You may recall that I offered you and a couple of your friends pictures, beta and help with outfitting. After initial ohs and ahs about the objective I showed you...nothing but silence. There were Three climbers on Huber’s team, hardly a giant expedition in the old style.
Yes, and I would love to go there, with you guys! But currently employed full time, working on a comprehensive guide to rock climbing in High Sierra and my current employer does not allow more than 3 weeks off in a row.
And honestly I do not have partners that are excited to try some of the bigger peaks there like Latok and Ogre, I'd be much more excited taking a once in two years type of vacation with some sort of a giant objective that I am very inspired by. The place does look stunning and you are lucky to go there for third (?) time.
My post is not to put down your trip or any expedition out there but to point out that if impact on rock from people drytooling is so concerning (in chossy rock crags where people specifically put up drytooling routes) because of the impact on environment, shouldn't people not even go rock climning?? We drive our cars to the crag = impact. People place bolts, clean routes, make new trails, cover popular climbs with chalk from bottom to the top. People sh#t in the backcountry and leave toilet paper, random trash. People bail from big peaks and leave a bunch of tat on peaks. People walk on rock in crampons and scratch it this way. I feel like there are many impacts from us being in the backcountry in general and being annoyed by impact of drytooling routes is a little hypocritical coming from everyone who dares to eat and breath. The impact from people producing trash and wasting resources is greater on this world than impact from a drytooling session.
I didn't mean to pick on you (Jim) or the Hubers, all of you accomplished great things in climbing and you especially are a great person that is always positive and encouraging and I have a lot of respect and love for you, my example is to simply point out we all make impacts and to me it seems that there is more impact on environment from 30 people+ going through remote wilderness in a different country and staying there for 1.5 month (I would be happy to be on these expeditions, but I am not complaining about impact, I accept that there is impact from all the ways we experience wilderness. US parks are great at regulating it and keeping the wilderness wild and clean).
I am biased because I love mixed and drytooling. A few shots from yesterday. :)
Doesn't this look fun as hell???
https://vimeo.com/33005769
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Vitally. yes that looks super fun and yes i get it. I totally subscribe to the theory that in winter and in alpine terrain the gloves come off so to speak and almost anything goes. that means it's ok to pound pins and scratch the piss out of the rock with crampons but I also know in my heart that I am doing something that scars the rock and i am doing it to try not to die so at the moment i don't give a sh#t. If you take that same mentality to a crag and say heck its winter, anything goes, you can cause a lot of dammage. I also get annoyed when the same people who have no problem scratching the piss out of the rock with crampons get all high and mighty about bolts.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Manufactured climbs are for gym...
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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I don't know a single person who would drytool on established rock climbs at any point, summer or winter.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Dec 10, 2017 - 01:50pm PT
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Thanks HANS FLOURINE for making this fine wall. R.I.P 210 Wall Pasadena CA near JPL. 1992
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 11, 2017 - 02:58pm PT
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Scratched up a fair bit of rock yesterday :) Route was not in so it was a bit sporty in spots. I would have pounded pins if I had then ;) Isa was estatic when we topped out alive Of course I had to remind her that we were only half way there and we still had to get down.. Totally missed my usual decent gully and after falling into bazillions of spruce traps our trail angels gave us a helping hand. A faint sign of a trail, the ocasional cut branch and then a rap station Two raps spit us out at the base of a climb that I had soloed a decade or so ago. Officially down safe :) lost two screws in the spruce traps.... should have stowed all the gear in the packs but was expecting to do rappels and have to build anchors so left the gear clipped to the harnesses......
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JBoone
Social climber
NC
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Dec 11, 2017 - 08:00pm PT
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I started climbing in 87 and grew up on the climbing mag “bolt wars”.
Manufacturing holds on anything other than a quarry is wrong imho.
I don’t think aiding counts as manufacturing. I have never pounded pins but I am pretty sure the ones doing it were not trying to open free climbs for future generations.
We could of course agree that the result is same absent the intent and times. Interesting discussion indeed.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Dec 11, 2017 - 09:16pm PT
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I am pretty sure the ones doing it were not trying to open free climbs for future generations.
Jboone, actually in Yosemite Valley some climbs were 'creatively pinned' for just such a purpose. And not in the style of desert pin'ing to save the placement for a nut later, but just to get the hold bigger.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Dec 11, 2017 - 09:25pm PT
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'creatively pinned'
This method is called "Tipping the Balance in Your Favor" which differs from "Chipity Doo Dawg" as employed on the Nose.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 12, 2017 - 03:31am PT
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how can you be sure about something you have never done.......
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Ney Grant
Trad climber
Pollock Pines
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Dec 19, 2017 - 08:02am PT
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It was cold and windy this last weekend and we ended up here. I couldn't put my finger (or hand) on it, but the area seems to have been tampered with.
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Ney Grant
Trad climber
Pollock Pines
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Dec 19, 2017 - 03:31pm PT
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the riverside quarry is a real pile but at least the drill holes still line up...
Its actually a spillway in Northern California, though there must be many places that look like that.
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splitclimber
climber
Sonoma County
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Dec 19, 2017 - 03:44pm PT
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Ney- Is that Wishon? Road still open? or is it Spicer?
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