Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
Ed- many people who are white or Asian have been passed over in favor of an applicant of less academic merit with "minority" status.
Yeah, happens and I'm completely fine with that...
|
|
c wilmot
climber
|
|
I am not advocating for a safe space ed- I just expected an adult like you to respond with something more than a silly insult.
Gary- what on earth are you talking about?
And Ronald Reagan?
You are seriously confused as to what my political beliefs are
Healyje- you are fine with it because it doesn't affect YOU.
|
|
10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
|
|
While yes- there is many factors to admissions- the color of you skin should not be one of them
therefore, in your conclusion, being white shouldn't be a prerequisite for admission.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
Healyje- you are fine with it because it doesn't affect YOU.
And it affects you and that's your problem with it?
|
|
Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
|
|
Japan isn't having good outcomes.
The lack of immigration and diversity is fostering an ageing middle class that has nobody replacing them or be willing to provide services for the elderly. The population is shrinking.
They have a lack of doctors, for one thing, and the reduced tax base is holding down the salaries of the doctors that are there, so they emigrate.
And the poor level of English in Japan and difficulty for foreigners to learn Japanese is stifling the exchange of skilled workers.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
They have many other issues of a more insidious nature. It's still an old
boys' club on every level there that is not open to new ideas unless it
sells something, like Betamax! In Asia Singapore is where it's going on,
AND there's no chewing gum allowed! WOOT!
|
|
divad
Trad climber
wmass
|
|
GLOAT: Greatest Liar Of All Time...
|
|
zBrown
Ice climber
|
|
Is MRSA single or multiply syllabic, I ask you?
You can pick up a copy at the local YMCA also.
|
|
blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
|
Blah-blah the disingenuous laywer:
Your "Japan" example is patently ridiculous, but of a piece with your typical engagements here. I made a clear point, that diversity can improve the educational experience for all the students. This experience is not an easy thing to measure and involves elements that go beyond test scores or lifetime earnings.
If that's not clear, I can rephrase so that even a lawyer can understand: Make better than it would have been without that diversity.
Japan having "good outcomes" (whatever "outcome" means is not stated) without diversity is a ridiculous attempt at making a "point" when the assertion had nothing to do with "good outcomes". The assertion was "better than it otherwise would have been". "Better" applies regardless whether the starting point is "good" or "bad".
I hope you're not arguing this poorly on behalf of clients. Even a mediocre trial lawyer would hand you your ass in a courtroom.
Just in case you start deleting again . . .
It's possible that diversity may "improve the educational experience for all the students." (Is that somehow a more precise statement than "good outcomes"?) It's not self-evident. Maybe diversity makes the "educational experience" worse for at least some of the students. As I understand it, some educators believe that both boys and girls would get better educations in single-sex classrooms. And many thousands of black students believe they'll receive a better "educational experience" in a non-diverse environment. See if you can figure out how I know that . . . it's not rocket science.
And maybe diversity is just not that important with respect to the "educational experience." Might that be a concept at least worth considering in light of the strong education systems in many countries that just aren't very diverse? Of course, it's possible Japan (or Korea, or Singapore, or Hong Kong, or Finland) would be even better with more diversity. But when the countries with the best educational systems in the world are strikingly un-diverse, it might at least raise a question as to just how important diversity is.
So maybe diversity is good for education, maybe it doesn't matter very much, maybe it's even bad for at least some students in some situations.
But while the value of diversity in education is interesting, it's really not the main point I made. Go back and read my posts if you don't understand that, but I'll try to give you some help by saying it again here:
Even assuming that diversity might "improve the educational experience," it doesn't follow that it's a good idea to discriminate based on race in college admissions.
Can you think of some examples where it may be rational to discriminate for or against people based on their race, but we as a society have decided that it's both a bad idea and illegal to do so?
|
|
Shiho
Trad climber
Salt Lake City
|
|
They have a lack of doctors, for one thing, and the reduced tax base is holding down the salaries of the doctors that are there, so they emigrate.
I believe they do get paid a lot but not as well as doctors here. I've never heard of Japanese doctors emigrating. Source?
|
|
Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
|
|
My son was fortunate enough two be accepted to Cal Poly last year. Had he not, I couldn't imagine polluting his mind with the notion that a minority may have taken his spot. Is this what some of you tell your kids?
Would you tell your kids that in the South; blacks, Native Americans, Mexican and others were stuffed in a socioeconomic shithole right up to the 60's? Don't fail to mention that two generations prior to the 60's it was pure barbarism.
This isn't about guilt, it's about every action should have an opposite and equal reaction (advancement).
That said, the future of affirmative action is debatable and a completely merit-based Society should be in our sight's.
|
|
c wilmot
climber
|
|
Kingtut- you don't know sh#t about me or my family.
stfu
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
Yeah, minorities have nothing to fear when they express their rights of free speech:
John Trudell (1946-2015) was a leader for the Indian of All Tribes Occupation of
Alcatraz in 1969, and went on to serve as Chairman of the American Indian Movement
(AIM) from 1973-1979. On February 11, 1979, he burned an American flag on the steps
of the F.B.I J. Edgar Hoover building in Washington D.C., as he'd been taught in the
military to burn the flag once it had been desecrated; and the US government’s treatment
of Native Americans and its classism and racism had desecrated the flag.
Some 12 hours
after the flag incident, a fire “of suspicious origin” burned down Trudell’s home on the
Shoshone-Paiute reservation in Nevada, **killing Trudell’s pregnant wife, Tina, their three
children and Tina’s mother**. The F.B.I. declined to investigate, and the blaze was
officially ruled an “accident.” After the fire, Trudell turned his tears into writing poetry
and later, spoken word music and acting. A lifelong activist and human rights advocate,
he was quoted as saying “I’m just a human being trying to make it in a world that is
rapidly losing its understanding of being human.”
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
c wilmot: Healyje- you are fine with it because it doesn't affect YOU.
And so it must be affecting you and that's your problem with it?
|
|
yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
|
|
I think the information referred to in my first post has been somewhat misinterpreted, for example in the CNN editorial linked by rboard (where the author delights in trolling "liberals").
Consider these two graphics, first from Harvard:
Source: https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/harvard-university/student-life/diversity/
and Caltech:
Source: https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/california-institute-of-technology/student-life/diversity/
It's worth mentioning that the Hispanic population at Caltech (12.2%) has a slightly higher proportion than in Harvard (9.7%), although the main differences occur in the white/asian populations, which almost change places. Almost half the student body at Harvard is white, while only about 1 in 4 students at Caltech is white. While it's true that Harvard has a higher proportion of blacks (at 6.3%, dare I call this a "token" group?), the huge winners in their "affirmative action" policy are whites.
Given that the Supreme Court has allowed diversity as a possible criterion for the selection of a student body, I don't see why the black population has to decrease if that is a goal of Harvard admissions. The travesty of their "affirmative action" is the protection of whites at the cost of asians.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
From reddit
[–]gloogun270 79 points 2 days ago
I have a confession. I was part of a group in high school called KBD (Keep Blacks Down).
What people don't realize is that black people score VERY high in test scores, even beating out whites and some asians.
But the members of KBD would do all in our power to log in to the adminstrator computers and change scores,
steal papers and circle the wrong answers, even create conflicts against other blacks so they would get in fights and always be at in-school detention.
This wasn't just our high school. This was schools across the nation, working around the clock to make it seem like black people are cavemen dumb dumb apes
who can't even read words that are more than seven letters long. If it weren't for us, black people would be top of every class in the country.
Any former KBD members here?
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
Black people aren’t keeping white Americans out of college. Rich people are.
|
|
rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
|
|
That's like saying the child of a murderer has to make amends for the sins of his father.
I find that to be a misleading analogy about race relations in America, but maybe an accurate reflection of the mindset behind these beliefs.
But I'll give you another analogy with your male murderer, and even throw in a black murderer as well!
If a poor black father murders a rich white father and steals all his wealth, I don't think that the black children should be allowed to keep the stolen money and live in relative prosperity, while the white children are left to live in poverty. I think our society needs to make it fair for those white children. I don't see that as unjust or unfair. Do you?
But that's what happened in the US. Our white ancestors enslaved blacks, and stole their wealth, in the form of their entire lives' productivity. And now, instead of that wealth from their entire life's worth of productivity going to their black descendants, that wealth has gone to the white descendants of the theifs, and served as the seed money for the racial disparities that our society has such a hard time shaking. So here we are 150 years later, and median white wealth is 13 times median black wealth.
And sure, 150 years later, the individuals who benefit from that racial disparity forget how they got their advantage - they forget that the reason they're advantaged is because of past racial injustice. They don't feel like they're responsible for that past injustice. And they're not.
But as a society, in order to work together more effectively and more cooperatively for all of our sakes, many people (like me) believe that we need to fix that past injustice as it is reflected in current inequalities.
But one problem or challenge in doing so is that white people are 150 years removed from the crime, because our society never fixed it.
And why didn't we fix it at the time? A lot of those 150 years were spent trying to ignore or validate or perpetuate those inequalities, in Jim Crow, unequal civil rights, Brown v Board of Education (1954!) where Americans finally said that racial justice requires us to give blacks and whites equal education, voter inequalities, mortgage inequalities, policing inequalities, and on and on.
It's great that we're getting closer to racial justice in the present - that's an admirable goal, and I admire that you aspire to it - but the present inequalities are still a reflection of past injustice.
And we've never fixed that - instead of making the thiefs give back the money right away, our society has spent a lot of the intervening 150 years trying to validate the theft and reinforce those racial inequalities.
So when racially advantaged people say that all we need to do is make it racially neutral moving forward - for me, that's just a way for them to forgive their ancestors for their racial crimes, and validate the morality of our own advantaged position in the present.
Nobody needs to make amends for anything in the present. Nobody is being punished or has to pay for it. We - our society - just need to make it fair for everyone. And the way it is now is that blacks are racially disadvantaged because white people stole all their wealth 150 years ago.
Exactly what the mechanisms of the perpetuation of advantage from that crime are - decreased seed money wealth, black culture of poverty, continuing racial discrimination and reinforcement of racial advantages - we (our society) need to fix it. We've had 150 years to do so, but we haven't.
Yet. But hopefully we're growth learners :-)
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
Nicely stated rbord!
|
|
c wilmot
climber
|
|
RBord- your entire premise is that all white people are wealthy because the wealth of their ancestors has been passed down through generations
That is insanely delusional
As is your idea that all black people are poor
My father stole dog biscuits as a child-when caught by my grandparents who were extremely poor- he was forced to live in the doghouse outside for the week. Why? Because "if he wanted to eat like a dog he could live like a dog." Beatings were common. At other times he was arrested for stealing food from neighbors pantrys because he was literally starving. He has lifelong medical problems as a result of malnourishment. He was forced on disability in his early 40's as a result of these health issues. My grandfathers on both sides lost their fathers at extremely young ages. All of my relatives within the last few generations were EXTREMELY poor. You don't think that sh#t affected my father and in turn me? You think only black people have to deal with adversity?
There was no "privilege" for being white, there was no empathy from society because they were white. In fact my father was shamed and osteicized so badly for being poor ( and part of a "bad"family)he joined the military as a means of getting away.
The modest upbringing I enjoyed was s result of my parents own hard work- no one helped them
You really need to try and think beyond the absurd generalizations you base your argument on
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!