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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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May 28, 2017 - 10:09pm PT
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Mike L... Bob's comments are relative to the conversation in that some religious people use religion to create a self image which may or may not be real...
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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May 28, 2017 - 10:39pm PT
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Gotta agree. Much of the impetus - much of the purpose and value - behind religion is about control and power.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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May 29, 2017 - 05:03am PT
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Make L,
No, I don't think my comments strips of anyone of their humanity: I think it recognizes that as humans, we have deep longing to belong, to have a part of our identity within a group, and to know that we are recognized for being a part of that group. I think we need other people, to have a family, tribe, or gang with whom we can share our life experiences, who help us to recognize our life passages, and who will recognize our humanity. I have no idea where you come up with such drivel.
There is nothing in anything I said lacking in empathy or denying anyone's humanity, except perhaps your own pedantic perceptions of what you think other should think and feel. I am not going to even ask you why you make such off the wall statements: I think you simply put together stings of words in an attempt to refute or belittle the contributions of others in these discussions, without considering the source or the person, much less what they have attempted to communicate. Because when you purposefully or carelessly misunderstand people, you only show how closed and fossilized your own mind has become. Bob d'A's contributions are salient to this discussion, and your high-handed dismissals of those who do not genuflect to your superiority of insight and pedantry are both insulting to your own understanding, and lacking explicitly in the very humanity and empathy you deny others.
feralfae
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 29, 2017 - 07:21am PT
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Mile L wrote: Bob D’A,
You’re not really adding to the conversation.
Funny coming from you and your longwinded responses.
Mine are short and to the point...Religion is killing humanity and the natural world.
And you prove my point with every response you post.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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May 29, 2017 - 07:31am PT
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Feralfae:
I think Bob D’A has a political complaint in particular. I thought we were arguing about ideas.
My comments to you are also comments about abstractions, whether you make them or someone else does. Perhaps you’ve made your comment as an objective observer from the outside of other people’s experience. Yeah, we do that all the time in science. In my view it’s dehumanizing. Others might think so too. These days anyone who undertakes a research study of people’s behaviors in controlled situations now has to get approval (or at least check in with) some office on campus to ensure that they are not “using” or manipulating those people (especially students) psychologically or socially for their own purposes. You may not see the connection, but every objectification seems to me to be a distancing technique. I guess i’m with Socrates and his paradox: I think people—all people—are doing the best that they can. It seems to me that everyone thinks they are doing the right thing, the best that they can. That’s what makes the issue of moral choice and other things (like jurisprudence) so interesting.
Rottingjohnny,
Thanks for that interpretation. I guess I like your wording better.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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May 29, 2017 - 07:36am PT
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Bob,
Just missed your post.
I apologize for being longwinded sometimes. Being succinct is a sign of expertise. I struggle often making sense of what I’m seeing. So many things look hopelessly complex and self-contradictory to me. I also can’t seem to put almost anything into a box neatly and cleanly.
My comment was civil, I thought.
Be well.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 29, 2017 - 07:47am PT
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MikeL...your post was condescending. I don't make long winded responses especially here on ST, I don't think it is that complex and and history has proved my point.
That said I hope it all comes together for you...I kinda like the KISS way of looking at things. :-)
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c wilmot
climber
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May 29, 2017 - 07:53am PT
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May 29, 2017 - 07:21am PT
Mile L wrote: Bob D’A,
You’re not really adding to the conversation.
Funny coming from you and your longwinded responses.
Mine are short and to the point...Religion is killing humanity and the natural world.
And you prove my point with every response you post.
Hatred of others is killing humanity. You are no better than an angry religious nut. Go shop at the super save and get off that high horse
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 29, 2017 - 07:59am PT
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Hatred of others is killing humanity. You are no better than an angry religious nut.
I'm not angry or nuts just to the point which always seems to bother you.
Lack of tolerance is killing humanity along with lack of respect for the natural which you have no problem finding in the christian bible.
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c wilmot
climber
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May 29, 2017 - 08:09am PT
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So tolerant bob...
I don't worship any religion of man...
You should turn off CNN and try the same. Might calm you down
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 29, 2017 - 08:21am PT
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So how do Gods and spirits work?
are they intelligent? do they have personalities like Braun claims?
Can they think, converse, move, control things, create, do magic?
yet they have no physical presence, no material, no brain, no complex molecular structure.
Some how, complexity comes from nothing.
how about the afterlife, how does that work? where do you go? for how long? why?
If you could show us some kind of blue print of how it all works, then we could ask more questions and do a scientific study of the phenomenon... and
or you can just say ..... Here's how it works.. Gods and spirits can't be explained at all because Gods and spirits don't exist, so they don't have any anything.... question answered..
any one want elaborate on what I'm missing
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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May 29, 2017 - 08:29am PT
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Same amount of harm as ever.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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May 29, 2017 - 08:29am PT
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I theoretically miss the good old days, when apes were men and men weren't apes.
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c wilmot
climber
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May 29, 2017 - 08:30am PT
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Craig- ever wonder why a Dungeness crab claw is the perfect tool to extract meat from hard to reach areas? Is that just a fluke? Or was it "designed" that way? Certainly evolution would have nothing to do with it
I don't worship any religion- but I see god in the natural world all the time.
As to what "god" is- I have no idea
I used to reject the notion of a god and was quite vocal about it. As I have calmed down though I have had to admit to myself that something is going on. As for what it is- I have no clue
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 29, 2017 - 08:33am PT
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The 'Dungeness crab claw is the perfect tool to extract meat from hard to reach areas" due to a long evolutionary process that can be easily verified by a detailed scientific study
Wilmot, you best step away from any more of your speculations on evolution
just coincidence then...totally explainable by science... yes, totally explainable by the science that I know, I have a degree in Biology
creation science and intelligent design has been discredited completely
I see the beauty of evolution in the natural world, deep time has created unimaginable beauty and life on our planet
are we the only ones looking back at the universe?
That I don't know
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c wilmot
climber
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May 29, 2017 - 08:38am PT
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so you see it as just coincidence then...totally explainable by science...
What about dogs that can detect earthquakes before they start? Coincidence? Or do dogs just have a better scientific grasp of how the earth works...
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 29, 2017 - 08:43am PT
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Dogs can hear the vibrations created by earthquakes before they are detected by other means
I guess you have zero grasp on any science
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WBraun
climber
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May 29, 2017 - 08:48am PT
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Fry said -- "... deep time has created ..."
Just how foolish Fry always is.
"deep time has created"
I've always said "Time" is eternal and the impersonal feature of God.
"Time" is not under the jurisdiction of material nature.
No one can conquer or control "Time" by materialistic means.
Now even the fool Fry himself unknowingly describes the impersonal feature of God creating life.
Next, he'll be ranting trying to deflect all this into his little closed safe sterile haven box of scientism ......
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John M
climber
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May 29, 2017 - 09:17am PT
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I'm not laughing at you Craig.. Just laughing at the questions. You so want God to be material and He/She isn't. Thats what a spirit is. It has no material presence which you can test/detect with your machines. What can detect the presence of the Lord is your heart. but the heart can be polluted and that makes it even harder to detect spirit. Another thing that you don't understand is that by wanting God to be material, what you are really wanting is a way to control God. Which in essence means you want to be God. True religion would teach you that there is a way to be one with God, and thus God. But that is through the heart and most folks don't want that because it means that they must give up their feelings of superiority.
There are methods to learning how to detect spirit. They aren't really that hard. It is about learning to tune ones consciousness through the heart. The problem most people do not understand and are not aware of is that there are levels to the material world before you even reach the spirit world/lower levels of heaven. The densest level is the one which we all are aware of. The physical realm. The next level up, which is still in the material realm is the astral realm. This is where most people do their dreaming. Because it is so fluid, many people believe that they have reached the spiritual realm and this is where many problems with understanding begin, because the astral realm is not the spiritual realm. It is still a part of the material realm and it has been polluted by dark forces. This is why nightmares can occur. Its also why many dreams have no meaning. The astral realm is the level of emotions. The next level up in the material realm is the lower etheric. It is the level of thoughts. The higher etheric is beyond that and it is the level of beliefs. Edit: The higher etheric is the final level of the material realm and is the closest to the spiritual realm.
So our beliefs create our thoughts, which then create our emotions and it is our emotions that then create our experience in the material realm.
This is why the Truth is the pathway to peace. If one has Truth, then one can find lasting peace. Of course there are levels to even that. So while it might sound simple, it is actually very complex. Many people spend their whole lives teaching themselves to not feel, believing that this leads to peace. But this is a false path. If you understand the order of the universe, then you can understand why it is a false path.
I wish that there was a way to convey/convince you of the Truth of what I am saying. But I fear that that time has past as I believe we are in the time of the tribulation,I which means God has removed his hand from the world and darkness reigns. Which ultimately means that people are given over to their darkest desires, which is why people experience the world as indifferent. God is in no way indifferent. Nor is the world indifferent. Yet there are consequences to our choices and we are currently living them. This in no way means that one can not access God. It simply means that God is not actively attempting to reach humans. God is allowing us our choice. If one wants to know God, then one can find God. But that requires effort and a willingness to let go of ones ego. Werner at this point would say that one can't let go of the ego because the ego is our identity. In the teaching that I follow, the ego is our false self. Our True Self is our Identity. In the teaching that Werner follows, the false ego is the lower ego and our True identity is our higher ego. It is simply a matter of understanding what each person means by the words we use that can then cause one to see that we are speaking out the same thing. Yet the difference in the meanings of words and how people use them is one reason that there is so much misunderstanding between people.
And to those who say the heart is just an organ which pumps blood. I am not speaking about the physical heart. I am speaking about the spiritual heart, which we all posses, but which many have hardened by filling it with arrogance. anger, lasciviousness, lust, greed, and pride.
Awe of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom. Proverbs 9:10
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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May 29, 2017 - 09:22am PT
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My dog barks some...Mentally you picture my dog , but i have not told you the type o'dog which i have.. Perhaps you might even picture Toto...from the Wizard of Oz..? Arf..
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