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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Interesting stuff, Ed. While all those crime statistics are very encouraging, we have to admit that we've still allowed all those to occur by not stemming the tide. It does not seem logical to me to argue that those crimes would still have occurred had we NOT let them in. So the net result is more crime. That, as a group, they offend less than others is of small consolation to the parents of the child killed by the illegal drunk driver who should have been deported for earlier offenses but was protected by a "sanctuary city." None of these studies, of course, is an argument for uncontrolled illegal immigration.
BAd
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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by not stemming the tide I think, therein, lies the crux of the issue, but it's not what you think.
Consider the concept that we don't "stem the tide" is a false claim. We already do. We already have limits and restrictions and catch-methods in place.
Of course there will always be hose that slip through cracks and evade systems. Make a system - someone will find a way to game it. But we are led to believe - by a subset of sources - that things are wildly out of control; that undocumented immigrants play an out-sized role in our socioeconomic difficulties. I don't believe this is factually true, and Ed points to quite a few sources that say as much. The concept of "The evil illegal" is like the gaseous illusion of the Wizard in Oz.
Edit: One of my New Paltz FB Friends just posted this to his feed:
http://www.midhudsonnews.com/News/2017/March/03/Guerrero_deport-03Mar17.html
I know it's just one person out of many, but this is the sort of "bad hombre" that is getting rounded up under this current push for "border control."
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zBrown
Ice climber
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That, as a group, they offend less than others is of small consolation to the parents of the child killed by the repeat drunk driver who should have been imprisoned for earlier offenses but was protected by an attorney.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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If you are interested in reducing crime and are constrained by the resources available, then wouldn't it be prudent to both prioritize that crime you want to reduce, and to direct those reductions where they would have the largest affect?
While I do not condone violent crime from anyone, it would seem that if you want to make a major affect in reducing it, deporting non-citizens would not go very far towards that goal.
Strikingly, the criminalization of immigration violations seems to top the list in "criminal" activity as seen in the GAO report, followed by drugs, traffic violations and obstruction of justice, all together these are 58% of the "criminal alien arrest" offenses.
Spending law enforcement resources on alleged "criminal aliens" does not seem to be an effective way to reduce crime.
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c wilmot
climber
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Ignoring laws is somehow effective? You realize those drugs illegals bring over the border only lead to more crimes and violence right? Thousands of people have died from heroin over doses in New England as a direct result of criminal gangs from south of the border flooding the area with cheap heroin. And they were able to do so by exploiting our open border and constrained ICE officials
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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not sure what you mean by "ignoring laws"
are you asserting that it is possible to reduce crime to zero through law enforcement?
at what cost? and consider costs both in monetary and civil liberties.
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c wilmot
climber
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Crime will never be reduced to zero. That's a silly hypothesis of yours. And perhaps I misunderstand your views. I want current laws actually enforced. What do you want?
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c wilmot
climber
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Locker - most got addicted to expensive pharmaceutical opiads and only turned to heroin as a result of a lack of money to fuel their addictions. The blame is not so black and white. When I say cheap heroin I refer to the dropping price over the last years as the cartels bring in more and more quantity. They made a smart business move to fill the growing demand
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Should illegals be allowed a court hearing before being deported...? There is a 5 year back log for a hearing...If Mexico had a better economy would the unauthorized immigrants be sneaking across the border...? The outsourced factory jobs don't pay sh#t down there...Shouldn't it be Mexicos responsibility to take care of its' citizens wage earnings instead of having them escape Mexico...? Will The Wall keep Americans from escaping the US when Trump's great depression arrives...? The sands of time may tell...
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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The difference between TGT's posts and Ed's poss? Ed is obviously a scientist. he gathers facts and makes a reasoned case. TGT, cherry picks facts and bases half-baked conclusions on them.
A good argument for better science in our schools.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Crime will never be reduced to zero. That's a silly hypothesis of yours. And perhaps I misunderstand your views. I want current laws actually enforced. What do you want?
I'm trying to understand your logic. You want current laws "actually enforced" but we would both agree that there is a price to pay for that enforcement.
So given that there are finite resources, those in law enforcement have to choose what crimes to "actually enforce." Making this choice means that some crimes will not be "actually enforced."
Looking at the list of crimes in the GAO report, and thinking of what crimes are a priority to enforce, it is hard to see how the expense in prosecuting and deporting an alien for a traffic violation should be a priority for law enforcement, given the finite resources available to law enforcement.
And in particular, given the very small proportion of all criminal traffic violations committed by aliens, and the added expense to law enforcement for these particular offenses, one has to ask if this crime is a priority to "actually enforce," and could result in a reduced ability to "actually enforce" even that crime when the budget available is gone.
While it may be unfortunate that some of these crimes would not be "actually enforced," to try to "actually enforce" all of them would not be financially possible nor would it be socially acceptable.
For instance, if you had to prove you were a US Citizen when you were pulled over, how would you do it?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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This mornings headlines.
(I could do this almost every day with different stories)
This is the problem with reading headlines only, and not the actual articles.
The third talks about a group that killed a bunch of people. The problem is that they were NOT illegal aliens, they were legal.
Oooops! Guess your "evidence" shows the opposite of what you thought. But keep posting these "every day"---pretty soon you'll have convinced yourself that you are wrong.
Just because someone is a member of a violent gang does not mean that they are illegal immigrants.
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c wilmot
climber
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Ed h - when there are millions of people in this country illegally and they are so emboldened they openly say they are illegal it means our laws are not actually enforced. and what other laws do you find too costly to enforce? Your views are not clear. You are also discounting the costs on society from having so many here illegally.
If stopped driving you are required to have an id. If stopped at random with no I'd then you can give your social security number. In California-many can just give their state issued drivers license. Which has cost the state over a hundred million dollars so far.
Locker- if you want to be a participant in a debate you should start informing yourself on the subject at hand rather than asking others to guide you along the way. As you. full well know your simply trying to be obstructive. As usual.
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/07/19/us/heroin-in-new-england-more-abundant-and-deadly.html?referer=
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Should illegals be allowed a court hearing before being deported...? There is a 5 year back log for a hearing...If Mexico had a better economy would the unauthorized immigrants be sneaking across the border...? The outsourced factory jobs don't pay sh#t down there...Shouldn't it be Mexicos responsibility to take care of its' citizens wage earnings instead of having them escape Mexico...? Will The Wall keep Americans from escaping the US when Trump's great depression arrives...? The sands of time may tell...
The only problem with your argument is that Mexico is not actually a significant source of illegal aliens.
Mexicans made up 52% of all unauthorized immigrants in 2014, though their numbers had been declining in recent years. There were 5.8 million Mexican unauthorized immigrants living in the U.S. that year, down from 6.4 million in 2009, according to the latest Pew Research Center estimates. Meanwhile, the number of unauthorized immigrants from nations other than Mexico grew by 325,000 since 2009,
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/03/5-facts-about-illegal-immigration-in-the-u-s/
So you want to attack a country and a problem that does not actually exist as you state it. Mexico has largely been solved, so why do you want to beat up on the Mexicans?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Should illegals be allowed a court hearing before being deported...? There is a 5 year back log for a hearing.
Of course they should, unless they waive it. During that time, they should be on bond, as they are not representing a danger to the community.
A 5 year backlog is easy to fix. Easy. It can be paid for by the excess $12 BILLION dollars illegals pay into social security each year.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Yeah, sure, free dental. One of my cellar hands is loosing teeth. Where does he sign up?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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when there are millions of people in this country illegally and they are so emboldened they openly say they are illegal it means our laws are not actually enforced.
as I tried to support the idea, with the various links above, that the evidence is that "illegal aliens" are less likely to engage in criminal activities when compared with natives.
If what you mean by "emboldened" is that they comment any "crime" what so ever, then I don't know how to respond. In particular, since they are already engaged in violating the immigration laws, it seems a bit of a Catch-22, that is, just being here is illegal, and thus they are criminal.
It would seem that a greater incentive for them being here is that they can get jobs here, even though there are laws that prohibit employers from hiring them. So it would seem that the employment laws are not being "actually enforced" either, these would be crimes largely committed by natives, not aliens.
Where should the enforcement resources go?
I'm actually interested in your answer regarding what you would be willing to tolerate if you had to demonstrate your US Citizenship. You didn't answer.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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when there are millions of people in this country illegally and they are so emboldened they openly say they are illegal it means our laws are not actually enforced. and what other laws do you find too costly to enforce? Your views are not clear. You are also discounting the costs on society from having so many here illegally.
I find the execution of federal officers as a cost of evicting Cliven Bundy is too costly, and dealing with it in other ways is better and less costly, in terms of lives lost.
I find the cost of the Waco operation was WAY out of proportion to the good done.
So you don't agree that police giving a "warning" for a traffic offense is legitimate? The law is not being enforced, which you seem to feel is paramount.
Drinking in public is illegal, and yet we don't have the Rangers do a nightly roundup of climbers in Camp 4. You advocate that they should? They should ticket everyone smoking pot (it ain't legal YET---and it won't be legal on Federal Property, like Yosemite)?
Is it efficient to send a SWAT team and another dozen officers to bust an illegal immigrant at home who had a broken tail light? That is an efficient use of resources?
Or are you one of those who LOVE the idea of the highest taxes possible, wasted in all sorts of manners, doing your best to generate the highest US Debt possible??????
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c wilmot
climber
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Ed you deliberately skew my comments. There is little point trying to debate you. I am kind of surprised someone of such intellect would resort to such low brow tactics. I'm out.
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