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pc
climber
East of Seattle
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Dec 19, 2006 - 01:32pm PT
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But it was nice weather when they started out...
Ah f*#k it, nobody leave home from November to April! Er then, June through August because it's too hot...
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mthoodrescuehope
Social climber
nyc,ny
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Dec 19, 2006 - 01:47pm PT
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many of us here have repeated what others have already said. actually, i don't mind reading.. but many statements made were my very questions, which were initially passed-off, yet, they were only to be re-introduced (as the situation digressed) and then answered later down thread.
so technically, pardon the pun, but we have reached a "summit" in the convo. on whether or not the technology supposition is valid.
but on nancy grace. let's keep in mind media "makes" news. so don't attack nancy, just criticize where you think her network will/may take the story. ok? however, i am inclined to beleive this story/that story doesn't make a real difference to characters such as nancy. it's all bright/hot lights, high energy, camera & ACTION in the studio. major brand network news is nothing like the local 6 o'clock nightly report. if i were an achor my rationale would be, i want my broadcast to the best broadcast on this story (i.e. quality-wise). At that point, you have to pick your words carefully -- please the audience, say what they need to hear, "how" they would want to hear it. :: ahem :: enough said.
my mind was with these guys all the damned weekend. now, with the storm approaching.. lord have mercy on the families.
at this point, the reports are hinting the areas that are to be searched next are treacherous . the last thing we need is SAR to get hurt, then an extraction due to having no real idea where these guys are.
is there a case which anyone knows of where SAR ceased on "no findings" after time?
Best wishes.
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mthoodrescuehope
Social climber
nyc,ny
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Dec 19, 2006 - 01:56pm PT
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bhilden reply,
hey bruce. i understand your perspective on thie issue, although i did not watch that particular newscast with mr. o -- i know he is a very analytical debater. many people can't easily reason with him or unsaddle his perspective in a convesation with hiim, or someone like him (mr. o is the BEST of them)
generally, this is the "status-quo" of network news. present, review, and (unfortunately) dabate. can't we just have objective reporting/journalism?! is that too much to ask?
now frankly, because the media is the way it is.. the networks have put down the spot-light and brought this mt hood sar issue to center stage. now what you *will see are the anchors/journalists calling for change; suddenly now they (the news) becomes the trumpet & mouthpeice of the people (i.e. public opinion).
how do i know this so well, because this is NOTHING new. this is how it is done in america, until the next story is borne:
twa flight 800
911-part 1
mcveigh
991-part 2
malvo
florida execution
cop shootings of men in nyc
you name it, they (i.e. media) sway it.
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nvrws
climber
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Dec 19, 2006 - 02:00pm PT
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rescue hope:
dude you don't get it do you? Most SAR folks are volunteers, they love this stuff. As a past SAR person, I can tell you I relished the dangerous stuff, we practically fought over who would get the narly assignments. Its what we trained for. Yes people got injured, nearly killed even and no it is not what we would ever want. But... we know the risks and accept them and yes volunteer for them and whoaaaa hold on.. ready for this..... played these dangerous games in our liesure time.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Dec 19, 2006 - 02:05pm PT
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(please forgive the technical digression - regarding use of GPS)
Cleo wrote:
... it isn't even reliable to 100 ft of elevation (the small-off-the-shelf units,
not the $30K bulky backpack ones), and elevation is one of the better ways
to orient yourself on a big mtn (note: many climbers do carry altimeters/barometers!)
That is simply not true, at least not since Selective Availability
was turned off in mid-2000. I bought my first GPS unit in '95, a
Garmin 45 ($300.00, with no base-map). For years the altitude
readings were pretty useless, generally off by 400 - 600 feet.
But when Selective Availibility was turned off, it was like, WOW!
All of a sudden, waypoints were consistantly accurate to 10 to 30 feet,
and altitude readings were always within 60 feet, often dead-on
when checking against topo maps and highway elevation signs.
I would even venture that GPS altitudes can be often be more
accurate than altimeters, because altimeters can be thrown
way off by big changes in barometric pressure, and need to
be recalibrated often.
Here's an article about Selective Availability being turned off:
http://geography.about.com/library/weekly/aa050400a.htm
An excerpt:
GPS is actually now more accurate than the accuracy standard for United States Geological Survey
topographic maps so outdoor enthusiasts should truly appreciate the new accuracy of their GPS units.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Dec 19, 2006 - 03:30pm PT
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"Nancy Grace is a pig. I really would be happy if she died. "
I also saw Nancy Grace last night. After talking about legal responsibilities of the two that left the third, I said out loud - You stupid !@#$. Die Bitch.
The whole CNN and Fox coverage was a cluster f*#k.
Its a well know fact that when climbers want a rescue they form a Y - The Y means - Yes here we are.
JDF
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JLP
Social climber
Fargo, MN
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Dec 19, 2006 - 03:37pm PT
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I've been climbing with my GPS for quite a few years now. The altitude measurements are indeed typcially better than an altimeter because they are not effected by changes due to weather, temperature. Further, my particular unit has a barametric altimeter built in, with satelite calibration and pressure updates even with the unit turned off (checks pressure every half hour or so in a 'sleep' mode, and saves). Add to that the fact that you can buy, download or build very fine topo maps for many of the world's mountains, I would call it flat out cheating. I've always felt pretty sharp routefinding, and I think this thing has made me even better, always looking at things a new way. I always have real maps with me, but this thing sure saves time and allows me to travel a heck of a lot faster in adverse conditions and situations. "You are here, going this way." in a blink.
JLP
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Dec 19, 2006 - 04:48pm PT
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I'm not being critical of the Mt. Hood situation, I'm just reasoning within myself and trying to learn a lesson . . .
There are two extremes which outline the technology debate. There are those who say,"Bring nothing at all be completely self-reliant and detached from the world. If the sh#t hits the fan so be it. Deal with it." Then there is the other extreme. "Hey, wow cool, I've got all this nifty technology I'll just go do something stupid even though I don't have the experience. If the sh#t hits the fan, no problem I'll just call and get plucked off the mountain."
Here is a parable/story to explain the true middle ground . . .
Let's say three very good experienced climbers set off to climb a remote North Face route on a peak in the North Cascades National Park in Winter. They are in shape, they researched the route, they have checked on the weather forecast and they have a good window of clear weather that is long enough to do the route. They tell their families of their plans, and even let close friends know. They go and one packs a GPS with fresh batteries. One packs a fully charged cell phone. And the other packs a fully charged Satellite phone.
They are on the climb, making good progress and get near the top and bam, a fall occurs and one of the climbers now has a serious broken arm. Since they are near the top, the other two assist the third to the top, to where they can settle safely. They all notice strangely the weather has turned, and a storm is quickly approaching. Wow, the weather models got it wrong. Where did this storm come from? By the time they get to safer ground along the summit plateau, a full on cold front is raging and it is starting to snow and blow hard. Time to make shelter, so they quickly dig a snow cave for all three climbers to get out of the weather. The situation has turned dire. The sh#t is hitting the fan. They planned well, they have the experience, but sh#t happens.
Once they have the shelter made and everyone is inside with warmth, food, water, and shelter, they know it is time to call for help. They aren't getting out on their own with an injured climber so far and remote. Their partner is truely hurting, and there could definately be internal injuries and bleeding going on. He is in a lot of pain.
Damn, where did this storm come from? It wasn't predicted. They had an adequate window of good forecast. Who knows how long this winter storm that is upon them is going to last?
One of them goes to the entrance hole of the snow cave and takes a reading with a small Garmin GPS and writes down the coordinate. Another tries the cell phone, no contact with cell towers what-so-ever. The third calls 911 with the Satellite phone and gives the exact coordinates for their location, the name of the mountain, and a rough idea where they are on the mountain. Explains they are in an emergency situation with a friend of theirs with a serious broken arm and his condition doesn't look good. He is in an extreme amount of pain. The weather came up completely unexpectedly, but they are as warm and comforted as possible in their 4 season sleeping bags in a snow cave at said location. The 911 operator tells them to stay put, she will contact SAR with all the given info. She tells them to turn off their Sat. phone to save batteries and makes a designated time for them to call back to speak with SAR.
They wait, and call back at the designated time and she transfers the call to SAR. They tell the climbers to stay put we know exactly where you are. Stay as comfortable as possible, melt snow, put as much as you can in water bottles in your sleeping bags so it doesn't freeze. The storm is going to last a few days, and it is intense. It caught everyone by surprise. We will be there with a helicopter and pull you guys out as soon as there is any useable break in the weather. Stay put. Stay warm. Stay hydrated. And stay calm. We will be there. Call back at 9:00am each morning to quickly check in so we know how you are doing. Leave the phone off to conserve the battery. We will contact all of your families immediately to let them know everything is under control as best as possible.
Four days later they are pulled-off the mountain, cold, tired, hungry, thirsty, but alive.
The truth lies in the middle.
When technology is used correctly it can be a life saver. Who knows what could have happened on Mt. Hood with a little more communication and exact location? Without that one short cell phone call that was made, the emergency may not have been know about for a much longer amount of time, regardless of the outcome.
I really feel for the families. This is tragic all around.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Dec 19, 2006 - 05:10pm PT
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Why not leave all the technology at Home?
JDF
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binky
Big Wall climber
boulder
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Dec 19, 2006 - 05:42pm PT
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Yeah technology is ducky. And it can help for sure if you like that sort of thing. Kinda reminds me of fixing ropes up the mountain to "get back safely" just not sporting and it weighs a lot. What I seem to be missing here is in the early days they said that they were heading for a "fast and light" approach. To me that means no tent, minimal food and fuel. When the s&%t hit the fan, they did not have the gear to settle into a long wait. To me , if we are going lite and something comes up, you get hell out of there. No sleep, no rest, just pain. When you are going quick you have no luxury to sit it out. Just bad luck if you ask me. too sad.
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cleo
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Dec 19, 2006 - 05:46pm PT
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Re GPS...
Hmm - you guys have had much better luck w/ GPS than me ... I've used different units at work and at home, and I've seen even those $30K units be off by 100 ft in elevation. (I never even touched a GPS until after 2000, so it's not the satellite scrambling).
Or maybe the ground survey control was incompetent? (I'd believe it in some cases)!
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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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Dec 19, 2006 - 05:58pm PT
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A different ending to the Klimmer story:
Rescue is inititated because climbers are able to make contact using cell phone. Climbers are successfully rescued, but during the rescue one of the rescuers is seriously injured (or worse) when caught in an avalanche.
The whole premise of your happy ending is that somebody, somewhere is willing and able (because of being "connected" with the technology) to risk their own well-being to save the climbers.
Contrary to what mthoodrescuewhatever argues, this is an important issue and worthy of discussion. This atttitude about technology represents a significant departure from what was once considered to be a basic value amongst climbers.
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JLP
Social climber
Fargo, MN
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Dec 19, 2006 - 06:01pm PT
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I actually figure 200 ft as rule of thumb - map, position, etc errors combined. Whatever. 200 ft and a couple other points of reference is pretty damn good, IMO. If I let that thing sit on a summit while I take my nap, it may come within 30 ft or so and stay there. Definetly averages less than 100ft, though I haven't taken any detailed data. I've seen many an expensive altimeter off by way more, and that's even with frequent calibration. If that GPS has at least 5-6 satelites, I am almost certain to have a < 200 ft number. Never such certainty with a barametric unit. More satelites, more time for averaging, more accuracy. Lots going on with these things and it pays to know your instrument. The mapping is what is golden, though. Like I said - cheating.
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Ouch!
climber
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Dec 19, 2006 - 06:15pm PT
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Technology aside, the storm was just too rough and sustained. Bad things just happened. After seeing what it did at sea level, imagine what it must have been like on the mountain.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Somewhere, CA
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Dec 19, 2006 - 07:37pm PT
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For analysis, wait a few months and read the AAC's 2006 Accidents in North American Mountaineering. There will be plenty in there to learn from - interviews, list of gear, etc. The 'what ifs' are often covered in depth - additional fuel, GPS, extra gear, weather reports.
My thougths are with the friends and families who lost their loved ones.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 19, 2006 - 07:41pm PT
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I am not advocating leaving technology home, sorry if my post implied that...
I am saying that you should go there with the assumption that you are entirely on your own, and you should conduct yourselves as if that were a fact. Certainly technology can be a huge aid in keeping you alive, and maybe even in getting you rescued in the event that something happens.
Just don't go out counting on a rescue, be prepared to count only on yourselves.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 19, 2006 - 07:48pm PT
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These tragedies are the result of fate, nothing to do with having technology or not. It's in our stars .........
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JLP
Social climber
Fargo, MN
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Dec 19, 2006 - 08:10pm PT
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You'll get lost in the stew if you start trying to say GPS, MLU, warm gear, cell phone, or NOT etc. would have made a difference.
The #1 and #2 cause here, and in most accidents, (go check the statistics) is 1) Being able, competent and safe on the expected terrain. No dice here on that one. Must be tough trying to be an ice climber in Dallas Texas. 2) Being efficient enough with your ways to complete the route in an expected and somewhat predictable time. They miss on that one too. These two things reduced their margin to almost nothing, and margin is everything in alpine climbing. A phone, GPS, warm cloths, stove, etc. all increase margin, but not quite as much as being able to bust your moves 1000's of feet off the deck competently and quickly over mixed terrain w/ little to no pro. Margin - margin to deal all the unpredictabilities, especially in alpine climbing, such as getting lost, injured and/or benighted. They had little to start with, and it ran out fast. No margin. That's my take here.
My take on the details of their actions is that they appear to have gotten stuck in the "over the top" mentality. Oh yeah, it'll be a LOT easier that way! It's ego, I think. If things are going bad, you still want the summit to save face. So many tragedies have tracks leading over the summit when it would have been smarter to bail. But then bailing is a skill I think a lot of people are lacking in and fear. We know how to go up, then find the easy way down. How about the hard way down? It's usually a heck of a lot faster, requires less calories and is in the better direction for temps, weather exposure - and oxygen. Bollards & v-threads in likely settled conditions at the time. Slowly unload the rack into nearby rock. Slings on horns. Start sliceing up the rope. Head back from which they had become no doubt intimately familiar. But from the description of their last anchors above the precipice of their end, they probably didn't have a clue. Two pickets and all the rest of the rack equalized won't get you far. Bummer. Sad and a bummer.
JLP
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 19, 2006 - 08:36pm PT
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"JLP: 1) Being able, competent and safe on the expected terrain. No dice here on that one. Must be tough trying to be an ice climber in Dallas Texas. 2) Being efficient enough with your ways to complete the route in an expected and somewhat predictable time."
I would very much disagree with this assesment. No such facts indicate that is the case so far. I rock climb very near Mt. Hood in the Columbia River Gorge and to do that this time of year I have to monitor the weather forecast very closely ([url="http://www.intellicast.com/IcastPage/LoadPage.aspx?loc=usa&seg=LocalWeather&prodgrp=SatelliteImagery&product=PacificLoop&prodnav=none" target="new"]Eastern Pacific sat loop[/url] / [url="http://www.intellicast.com/IcastPage/LoadPage.aspx?loc=usa&seg=StormCenter&prodgrp=SevereWeather&product=JetStream&prodnav=none" target="new"]jet stream[/url] / [url="http://www.intellicast.com/IcastPage/LoadPage.aspx?loc=usa&seg=StormCenter&prodgrp=SevereWeather&product=JetStream&prodnav=none" target="new"]Hood River, OR 10-day Forecast[/url]). I climbed both Thursday and [late] on the Friday they started out.
The weather was clearly perilous - the jet stream was upon us, the Eastern Pacific Sat showed major storms stacked up to Japan, and temps were dropping again. It was burly when Hangerless and I were out on Thursday and more so late on the Friday they set out when I hit it again with another fellow. We were fighting mid-30 temps, steady 40-50kt winds with heavy, sustained gusting to 60kt on the exposed, corner ridge topping out on the route. I free solo the final ridge ramp, but I had to place pro about every 8 feet anyway to secure the rope I was bringing up for my partner against the wind and the wind drag on the rope was all but hauling him up as he climbed.
The weather was getting serious that Friday Night and dead serious Saturday. They had a Friday/Saturday window and that was it - period. It was a squeak job and they had to have known there was zero backend breathing room if anything went wrong. They took their shot and it didn't work out - again, as I said earlier, I have no judgment around that - I assume it happens in the Valley and elsewhere all the time. The difference in this case was when the door closed, it closed hard, fast, and completely. It was an all or nothing deal upfront that just didn't pan out for them from where I sit due to an accident. Sh#t happens and I've seen nothing so far that makes me question their technical or physical competence.
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