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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Good thread that hasn't degenerated into name-calling... It must be the work of some God just for that to happen!
A question though, for those thoughtful posters who say they "got to know" Jesus was there a moment or manifestation of some kind that the good carpenter was somehow in touch with you?
In other words, was there a clear line or point in time from before Jesus/God to "with" Jesus/God? And what made you believe that was true?
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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In response to the bible maybe not being the easy believing handbook of Truth that you believe it to be, you replied:
Well crap, I guess I'm out of luck then.
I disagree. I think that we humans have evolved human belief creation processes because those processes and the resulting beliefs are advantageous to us, not because our beliefs are always true. The measure of the value of a belief is not whether or not it's true, but whether or not it's advantageous to believe. Sure there are huge advantages to believing Truth that is exhaustingly algorithmicly derived, but given the incomplete information that we have, and the limited resources of time and processing power, sometimes it's more advantageous to believe the half truth of our heuristics. What passes to us as exhaustively algorithmicly derived is "I've thought a lot about it", or "I've read some good books on the subject". A handbook of easy believing truths sounds pretty advantageous!
Does this dress make me look fat? Hell no! Now let's go out and do some good with our falsely derived self-esteem.
I agree DMT. I like this guy.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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You see Jesus doesn't want a religious adoptee, he wants you to know him and know him for real.
The relationship that he wants is a "real" disciple, not an "adopted" disciple?
You seem like a really good-hearted person who I admire, and I don't expect that was intentional, and it maybe only reflects an unconscious bias, but as a member of the adoption triad as the adoptive parent of two adopted daughters, ouch! With all due respect, which is considerable, to me, my relationship with my adoptees is more "real" than your relationship with Jesus.
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John M
climber
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I don't believe she said anything against adoption. I believe Lynne was trying to say that instead of simply adopting the practices of any religion, that one should strive for a relationship with Jesus which is different from just following some practices. Its fairly easily to follow some practices mechanically, i.e. going to church on Sunday. It takes more of oneself to create a relationship. This is why it is so important to understand that religion is not God. It is mans at times limited understanding of God, and is often completely off base.
I agree with her, but I would expand it to say that any being that has put on the full mind of Christ and become one with the Father has become the Christ, and therefore one could follow that person. I believe that there are many Christs. Buddha was one. Krishna was another. Mohammed I believe did not achieve full Christhood in that lifetime and as such his writings did not reach their full potential and have falsehoods in them. He was a high Chela and there is some truth in what he wrote, but there was ego that he did not overcome and thus his writings are tainted with that energy.
For Lockers sake, this is of course my opinion and you are free to disagree.
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John M
climber
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I always did understand Locker. I understood that you do not accept that there is a God. I do though accept that God is real. I also understand that I can not prove to you by scientific means that there is a God. I can only do my best to live what I believe, and let that speak for itself.
You say that I can not say that I know. By your standards perhaps that is true. But I know in my heart of hearts that it is true because I have experienced it and it is not some chemical reaction in my brain. No chemical reaction could do what I have seen and experienced. And therefore I say that I know that God is real.
There are of course people who will disagree. They are free to do so as I am free to believe what I believe as long as I harm no one. And that I understand is the point where people get pissed at the religious. Many people feel harmed by religion. To me that is a great sadness. It is sad that people through religious beliefs have harmed others, and it is sad to me that people judge God based on religion, and it is sad to me that there is so much misunderstanding.
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cintune
climber
Colorado School of Mimes
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I understood that you do not accept that there is a God.
So, if you're so sure, and yet can't "prove" any of it, then what's the point?
It sounds like you're really trying to convince yourself.
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cat t.
climber
california
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Daniel, I have a question that is not related to theology. (I hope it is not too tactless.)
As you know, I grew up in small town Texas, where everyone was quite religious. As an adult in California, I find that adults who take their religion seriously are kind, open, welcoming, and not pushy. As a child, though, the other children were kind of horrible. At worst, they told me my family and I were going to hell; at best, I was regularly excluded with a curt, "well, your family doesn't go to church." I'm confident that those kids grew up to be normal, tolerant adults, but as a child it seemed like religion was just one more way for kids to be exclusive and cruel.
My question, then: how do you simultaneously teach a child that your religion is the way to salvation, while also teaching them to be accepting of people who do not believe the same? The concept of "we firmly believe you are eternally incorrect, but we are still going to be nice" seems like it is hard for tiny humans to grasp.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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John M, your first paragraph conveys just exactly what I was trying to say. Thank You!
My father was dropped off at an orphanage in the early 30's, back when kids where adopted, worked to death and then returned which is what happened to his sisters. My Dad was only 3 so this did not happen to him.
My Dad was adopted by a Chicago Stockyards meat cutter and his wife. He worked hard during his youth and often retrieved his Dad from the local bar. My Dad married at 21 and became a meat cutter. One day he and my Mom decided that he would go back to school. He did and became a graduate of the University of Illinois, a physician, during which time they had 7 children. He has never let me forget how important his adoption and finally the adoption of his two sisters to good homes was.
I would never dishonor adoption even if my life had not been touched by it. I hope that clears things up rbord. Sincerely, lynnie
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Very interesting observation cat t.
but as a child it seemed like religion was just one more way for kids to be exclusive and cruel.
you are correct, religious teachings at an early age make children more intolerant, or is it less tolerant?
Religious children are meaner than their secular counterparts, study finds
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/06/religious-children-less-altruistic-secular-kids-study
Religious belief appears to have negative influence on children’s altruism and judgments of others’ actions even as parents see them as ‘more empathetic’
Children from religious families are less kind and more punitive than those from non-religious households, according to a new study.
Academics from seven universities across the world studied Christian, Muslim and non-religious children to test the relationship between religion and morality.
They found that religious belief is a negative influence on children’s altruism.
They are more judgmental of others because of feelings of superiority from their tribal religious experience.
“Overall, our findings ... contradict the commonsense and popular assumption that children from religious households are more altruistic and kind towards others,” said the authors of The Negative Association Between Religiousness and Children’s Altruism Across the World, published this week in Current Biology.
“More generally, they call into question whether religion is vital for moral development, supporting the idea that secularisation of moral discourse will not reduce human kindness – in fact, it will do just the opposite.”
So the question is, should a child be indoctrinated into any religion when the evidence says that it's not good for a child's psychological development?
Maybe they need to mature into a non-judgmental skeptical adult and then decide for themselves?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Craig, really.......can't paint the broad brush strokes, we are all different. Cheers, Lynne
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Jim, I think you're thinking beyond what I was thinking. I was speaking about jesus and his interaction with his own cultures religious leaders, namely the Scribes and the Pharisees.
I'm not a very subtle person, more like simply saying what I feel. Not really sure what you mean. L.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nice testimony, Lynnie. Thanks for sharing.
Karen - why don't you talk to Lynnie? Reading what you have written, I get your struggles. I also have the feeling you are trying to "do" something that has already been done for you.
Have a read through John 15, where Jesus talks about him being the vine and us being the branches. You don't have to produce the fruit, that's his job. All you have to do is .... abide.
Some translations use the word "remain" but I really like "abide". You might find some answers in this single word....
You say you wish you had more faith, like some other Christians. I believe faith is knowledge based - the more you understand, the easier it is to believe. Accordingly get back into the Word - blow the dust off your bible, dig out some of your favourite old books. Get yourself out to a ladies' group, find a spiritual mentor, build your faith through knowledge of the Word. Open your heart - God and HS will do the teaching.
Quit beating yourself up and dragging around the past like a millstone around your neck. God already beat up Jesus in your place - once is enough, eh? Why don't you take all that crap from past, and go throw it where it belongs - at the foot of the cross. You know ... the Old Rugged Cross?
All you have to do is abide: "If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old is gone, the new has come!" 2 Cor 5:17
Look upwards, not backwards.
In Him,
PtL and PtP Pete
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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What's up with all the son killing in these psychobabble cults? Seems diagnosable as schizo or more likely psycho.
Why is this hard? Poor victims of childhood indoctrination, save yourselves.
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Posting half asleep at five am sometimes doesn't work out so well for me. I just re-read what I wrote here earlier, pretty lame and there was no call for it. Carry on true believers, not that there's anything wrong with that...
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cat t.
climber
california
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Craig, I don't doubt those findings on a population-wide scale. Within any group, though, there are those who are more or less considerate, and I think Daniel is generally in the "more considerate" category.
I'm curious about this in a more practical way--or, precisely, I'm more curious about child development than I am about theology. The concepts of "eternal forgiveness" and "salvation" are complicated and difficult for children to apply to their daily lives, so how does one teach these ideas while also making it clear that these principles are not invitations to exclusivity and the ability to excuse oneself from personal responsibility?
I would put this question in a similar category to "how do you praise an intelligent or otherwise talented child?" It has been demonstrated that children told they are "hard workers" are more likely to succeed on future exams than children told they are "smart"--which probably has something to do with confidence and a sense of autonomy.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2016 - 09:04am PT
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s. For me, I believed there had to be some sort of God because of my background in science.
Do tell, got to be a good one...
Here's the very short version of a very long, multi-year story. I believe abiogenesis requires more faith than faith in God. Not to mention how many biochemical mechanisms are lacking from macroevolution theory. Whether people believe God started life millions/billions of years ago and helped it along or instead created it in motion more recently, I have no opinion.
So if the real reason that you believe that the bible is the Truth is for some other reasoned descriptions and arguments, why do you cite those bible verses when you express that belief? Force of habit of expression or thinking? Or are those bible verses the most convincing and compelling defense of your belief in the bible as Truth that you can offer? Sorry, I was probably too wordy with my first answer. Basically, a series of events led me to believe that the Bible contains words from God. So, from now on when I have a question about something I check my beliefs/statements against what the Bible says. I see your concern, that believing the bible is true because the bible says it's true is obvious circular reasoning. Maybe I'm not explaining it clearly, but I don't think that's how I got to where I am.
A question though, for those thoughtful posters who say they "got to know" Jesus was there a moment or manifestation of some kind that the good carpenter was somehow in touch with you?
In other words, was there a clear line or point in time from before Jesus/God to "with" Jesus/God? And what made you believe that was true? I have many friends and have met many people with beautiful stories about this, but for me there was no sort of ta-da moment where I felt different after accepting Jesus. Since then, though, I believe I have had some. I couldn't do it justice trying to explain it unless someone has experienced a moment with Jesus for themselves.
Daniel, I have a question that is not related to theology. (I hope it is not too tactless.)
As you know, I grew up in small town Texas, where everyone was quite religious. As an adult in California, I find that adults who take their religion seriously are kind, open, welcoming, and not pushy. As a child, though, the other children were kind of horrible. At worst, they told me my family and I were going to hell; at best, I was regularly excluded with a curt, "well, your family doesn't go to church." I'm confident that those kids grew up to be normal, tolerant adults, but as a child it seemed like religion was just one more way for kids to be exclusive and cruel.
My question, then: how do you simultaneously teach a child that your religion is the way to salvation, while also teaching them to be accepting of people who do not believe the same? The concept of "we firmly believe you are eternally incorrect, but we are still going to be nice" seems like it is hard for tiny humans to grasp. Hi Cat! Ya, I quit going to Sunday school when I was little because I didn't like all of the "religious" kids that seemed to miss the point of Christ and like to judge instead. I am teaching my son what I was taught, and what I believe Jesus taught. That is, we are not called moralize immoral people, but instead to love people where they're at. I believe this comes from Jesus teaching us not to judge others (Matthew 7:1-6), teaching us to love everyone (Matthew 5:44) and telling us not to be legalistic (basing our lives around a bunch of nit-picky rules and enforcing them on others, Romans 14). Not to mention how Jesus loved to talk about things like lost sheep and prodigal sons, showing how much he cares for people that aren't "part of the club."
So the question is, should a child be indoctrinated into any religion when the evidence says that it's not good for a child's psychological development?
Maybe they need to mature into a non-judgmental skeptical adult and then decide for themselves? I don't believe the teachings of Jesus should be judged through the lens of people who misinterpret them and screw up.
To your second point: Imagine you believe in something that you see as the best thing about life and firmly believe it is, in fact, the whole point of life. I can't imagine that there would be any loving parents who would not share this with their kids (assuming they believe it).
I prefer obligation to a free state based on private citizens and public servants VS. a theocracy.
I believe Jesus thought this was smart as well (Romans 12 to 13)
What's up with all the son killing in these psychobabble cults? Good question, God thought it was detestable (Deuteronomy 12:31)
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Prosthletyzer!
He thought it was detestable when exactly? When he tested Abraham? When he tortured his own son? When he condemned the majority of humanity to eternal damnation.
Words have meanings, you know?
From out here in the rational world, you sound like another Scientologist or Mormon or Any other bullshit cultist.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Cat T:
Ha! I have always been "smart". I have never been a "hard worker".
I graduated last in my engineering class both alphabetically and arithmetically, thus proving I did no more work than I absolutely had to, and maximizing my time caving, climbing and playing my trombone.
Religion is nothing but a set of rules - it's not the way you seek God. Seeking God is about having a personal relationship with your creator. Jesus was extremely anti-religion - he spoke of love and faith and forgiveness. These are the building blocks of Christianity.
That and the rather nebulous but empirically observed belief that when we invite Jesus into our hearts, we become filled with the Holy Spirit who helps us in countless ways. This is complex, but clearly observable in limpingcrab who demonstrates so-called "fruits of the Spirit" like love, patience, kindness, gentleness and around this place - self-control!
"The concepts of "eternal forgiveness" and "salvation" are complicated and difficult for children to apply to their daily lives, so how does one teach these ideas while also making it clear that these principles are not invitations to exclusivity and the ability to excuse oneself from personal responsibility?"
Please follow this story, perhaps a modern day parable:
A girl is speeding in her car, 50 mph over the limit. She gets pulled over by a cop who writes her a ticket. She does not appear disturbed. "See you in court!" she says to the cop as she drives away. You see, the girl's dad is a judge in the local traffic court.
A few weeks later, the girl and the cop arrive in traffic court, and appear before the girl's dad, the judge. The girl knows that her dad loves her very much, and is certain that he will let her off.
After hearing the cop's evidence, the judge brings down his gavel and declares, "She's guilty of speeding. The fine is $500."
The girl is heartbroken! How could her dad - who loves her so much - do this to her? Why didn't he let her off? He could have!
What happens next amazes the girl even more. The judge takes off his robe and hangs it on a hook, and reaches into his pocket for his wallet. He pulls out $500 cash, and gives it to the bailiff, thus paying the fine for his daughter's speeding violation.
In this parable, the judge is God. God is God, and when a sin is committed, a fine has to be paid. It's a pretty stiff fine, too - usually paid in blood.
When Christians believe that "Jesus died for our sins", we accept that Jesus paid the price for all of our sins in his one single action on the cross. The price is paid for all sins once and for all - past present and future. It's a free gift - we accept it through our faith. Just like the girl accepted her dad paying the fine for her. The judge didn't ask her to reimburse her later - my dad sure would have!
The relationship between daughter and father is founded on love, and accordingly the daughter is not going to get back in her car, and intentionally speed, knowing she'll get off next time. Although some daughters might.
So even though the daughter has been "saved" and will be "eternally forgiven" for all further speeding tickets or whatever other traffic offences she is sure to commit sooner or later - don't we all? - it does not excuse her from the personal responsibility to be accountable to the one she loves - her dad. If she wants a relationship that is based on love, she won't intentionally sin, in spite of the fact that she knows she can get away with it.
Something like that.....
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John M
climber
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Prosthletyzer!
LOL. through the vulcan mind meld he forced you to read this thread. OMG! or was he using the force? dang.. I get those two confused.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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I don't read this psychobabble. I just like to kick culty as#@&%es.
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