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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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That sounds like the difference between town and country insurance and the years you paid into various policies with the same insurance company, before having a problem.
And the exact same mediocrity will prevail for anything to do with guns. They do not have the man power to follow through on it. Nor is it cost effective.
That is the reality in this country.
There are over 1500 gun control laws on the books throughout this nation. NOT one could have prevented most of the school and mass shootings. NOT one.
This last shooter had a clean driving and criminal record and has NEVER been seen by mental health provider for any past issues, never.
So in a realistic term, please do tell us how this latest whacked out dude could have been stopped from completing his manifesto?
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John M
climber
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whole lot of autos out there too..
things changed. It often happens slow, but it does happen. Too bad people are so screwed up they can't talk decently about the subject. I don't really know the solutions, but like auto insurance, if you don't have it and you hurt someone, you pay out big.. so most people have insurance. Not because the cops do that much checking, but because of what happens after.
So with guns, making the parents responsible for what their under age kids have access to would be how some laws could be enforced. Change would happen slowly, but it would happen. And there will always be some who try to cheat the system.
I don't really know what the best solutions are, thats why I would love to hear a civilized discussion.
I would probably start with better availability of counseling and better trained counselors who actually have the time.
The state of our current public mental health care is pathetic.
So I guess kids are cheaper.
Because we just don't seem to get it, having armed guards might be the easiest solution. But what are you going to do at movie theaters? Arm the ticket taker?
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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, if you don't have it and you hurt someone, you pay out big
REally?
My Son in law just got nailed {T-Boned after running a red light) by an Illegal with NO insurance. Guess what...
The Illegal ran never to be found, the vehicle he was driving was stolen and my S-I-L had to pay his $1K deductible for his Uninsured Motorist claim.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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The LAST shooter in OR had NO recorded mental health issues nor criminal record.
How do you John M determine his fate to NOT own a gun/s?
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Insurance covers accidents and there is not an insurer in business who covers willful acts of violence.
Ergo, such coverage will never exist.
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John M
climber
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I know that some parent do a good job and still things don't turn out well. They have one kid who turns out well and one who doesn't. They take the kid to counseling, they do everything that they can, and still the kid turns out bad. For them the responsibility should be mitigated by a judge. But sadly we often can't trust judges because humans are just plain messed up.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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And what of the young pilot who stuffed several hundred people into the side of a mountain recently? Oh yes... I forgot, he used a plane. No narrative there to be exploited. Notice how quickly that dropped into the memory hole.
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John M
climber
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Insurance covers accidents and there is not an insurer in business who covers willful acts of violence.
Erg
I was talking about how to hold parents more responsible so that they would take more steps to ensure that their whacked out kid doesn't have access to guns. It wouldn't stop some cases, but it might slow down a few. Much like education is helping kids recognize the signs and know when to tell someone, which recently stopped some kids in Sonora who were pretty far down the path of doing something terrible.
If we just sit on our hands and say.. oh well, gun control doesn't work, then we will get nowhere but further down the road of violence. It will take ingenuity and wisdom to find some things that work, but I believe that it is possible, though I sadly don't have much faith in the average person. Thats why some new ideas are needed.
Most people now do have auto insurance, though it was heavily fought when first made mandatory.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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legally drive a motor vehicle
Key word, "legallly". How do know who is legally driving a vehicle and who is not?
Most illegal activities are found out AFTER the fact. In this gun issue case, it's too late.
The airline pilot mental health issue individual was a statistical anomaly
And these "Mass Shootings" aren't?
There are over 300 MILLION legally registered "gun owners" to date in the US.
According to the list that Crankaloon posted last night, there have been 20 mass shootings in the US the past 16 years. Do the statistical formula for them odds.
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John M
climber
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open your mind Chief. I said it wouldn't stop every case, but the more we know and the more that we do, the more positive things can happen. Sitting on our hands doing nothing is counterproductive.
And based on some of that young mans actions, I believe that the signs were there.
You have experience Chief. I bet you could see the signs when it was time to stand down one of your crew members. Experience counts. Thats why I agreed with some of what Ron said about the forest service not valuing some of their most experienced people. The problem is that you also get entrenched nimrods. So we throw the baby out with the bath water because we don't know what else to do.
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John M
climber
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Jim, there are penalties here in america too. But that doesn't stop some people, like illegal aliens. No law is perfect.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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The LAST shooter in OR had NO recorded mental health issues nor criminal record. He was a loner and stayed at home most of the time.
How do you John M determine his fate to NOT own a gun/s?
No law is perfect.
And there are over 1500 Fed, State and Local Gun Control Laws on the books in this nation to date.
How many more do we need to add to those that list.
How about we start enforcing them laws and throw more on the table that won't get enforced through plea bargains, crowded jails, racial profiling defense etc.
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John M
climber
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Chief, you are saying by using statistics that those kids who have been shot are not worth the effort. Plus what about the trauma to the rest of the kids? We are currently devolving because our only solution seems to be more guns. Really? That is your solution? More guns everywhere? Huh.. I thought we learned something during the wild wild west.
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John M
climber
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Its not quantity Chief. Its wisdom. It does no good to ban guns in Chicago if you can drive down the road and obtain them legally.
again, I don't believe that any law would stop every case.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Chief, you are saying by using statistics that those kids who have been shot are not worth the effort.
No. But do tell me how this last "shooter" in OR could have been prevented.
Zero "recorded" Mental Health issues and a clean criminal record.
Lanza acquired his weps from his Mothers house after terminating her.
Holmes's background checks, as required by federal law, were properly conducted, and he was approved, He had NO official record of mental illness.
The Freak kid in SC got his gun as a gift from his father.
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John M
climber
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again, I don't believe that any law would stop every case.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Zero "recorded" Mental Health issues and a clean criminal record.
Wrong, Chief.
Mother and son were both diagnosed with Asperger syndrome, an autism spectrum disorder. Kid was hospitalized.
gunman’s mother sometimes confided the difficulties she had in raising her son, including that she had placed Mr. Harper-Mercer in a psychiatric hospital when he did not take his medication
s. Jefferson said Ms. Harper had described bringing her son to the Del Amo Behavioral Health System in Torrance, Calif., near where they had lived before moving to Oregon.
“He calls and says, ‘Take me out, take me out,’ ” Ms. Jefferson said, recalling her conversations with Ms. Harper. “She didn’t take him out until the doctor said he was ready to get out.”
The Newtown shooter was as well
http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/news/20121218/aspergers-violence
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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DUDE LORENZO...
Wrong, Chief.
Mother and son were both diagnosed with Asperger syndrome, an autism spectrum disorder. Kid was hospitalized.
Nothing in that article states that she nor the Kid were currently under official "Mental Health" treatment.
Nor is there anything other than her, the Mothers word, in that article that shows anything "Official" of such. And she indicates NO "Official" dates when these events occurred.
And if she was so fking worried about his behavior, why the fk did she have over 14 "guns" in the house?
Also, most "child" health and criminal records become sealed (and most just plain destroyed) when they become 18 by most if not all states.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Can you have a conversation without any DUUUDES or other put Downs?
Show me ONE study that show Aspergers is cured. All I see is controlling with medication, which he was prescribed , and according to the mother, didn't like taking.
Or show me a report where a doctor said anything like " sure, this kid is perfectly OK packing semiautomatic weapons"
You said he had no mental Heath record.
That's a lie.
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