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Matt's
climber
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Mar 27, 2015 - 10:45am PT
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question-- do we know that the original bolt in question failed under body weight?
How do we know that some sort of weird high-impact fall didn't make it brake (ie, climber had stick-clipped the bolt and was climbing up to it without having taken up much slack out of the grigri; climber then falls a few feet, all within the context of very little rope in play)?
I ask because this tragic incident seems to be mobilizing people to reprioritize rebolting efforts.
best
matt
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couchmaster
climber
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Mar 27, 2015 - 10:54am PT
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2 shoes, are you describing the Rawl Spike? Very low strength.
Depending on material, 1/4 x 1-1/4 version in 2000 psi concrete tests to 830 tensile, 1815 lbs shear.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Mar 27, 2015 - 10:59am PT
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I have removed a few 1/4" Rawl Spikes during rebolting. I can't comments on their overall strength, but they were difficult to remove about the same as a 1/4" split shaft.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Mar 27, 2015 - 11:47am PT
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couchmaster, yes you are correct. Looks nuts, huh?
2 shoes, are you describing the Rawl Spike? Very low strength.
Depending on material, 1/4 x 1-1/4 version in 2000 psi concrete tests to 830 tensile, 1815 lbs shear.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 27, 2015 - 12:39pm PT
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question-- do we know that the original bolt in question failed under body weight? Matt,
We don't know exactly how he was loading it when it came out.
But if you look at Dan's photo, you can see it had been fully or almost fully cracked through for awhile, since rust covered the fracture.
So it probably wasn't strong enough for body weight.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 27, 2015 - 04:37pm PT
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Convenient for putting broom hangers in your basement wall maybe.
I've seen bolts on climbs which were better used to attached the toilet paper hanger to a gas station cinder block wall.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Mar 27, 2015 - 04:50pm PT
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We all gotta wipe our ass on the wall once in a while.
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Oso Flaco
Gym climber
Atascadero, CA
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Mar 28, 2015 - 09:01am PT
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Gentlemen,
Thank you all for the great info about torquing and the very informative thread overall, it is much appreciated. My friend and I were discussing yesterday the installation of Fixe Triplex bolts. I mentioned that the bolt is designed to have the hanger installed over the sleeve and behind the lip on the front of the sleeve, using a 12+ mm holed hanger, which IMO is the one feature that sets it apart from other bolts since it enhances it's removability and is thus more sustainable by design. He prefers to install the hanger in front of the lip on the sleeve, using a 3/8" or 10mm hanger and adds an SS washer between the nut and hanger. The reason is the possibility of the anchor failing if the nut was loosened, as sometimes happens to bolts over time and after right-swinging falls. If the hanger is behind the lip on an un-tightened Triplex bolt and the the hanger is then loaded in tension (axially), theoretically, the hanger could pull the sleeve out and cause failure. I thought about this and think it is probably very unlikely to occur except maybe in the case where the anchor would be loaded totally in tension (completely parallel to it's axis) such as in installations on horizontal overhangs. Any thoughts?
Thank you, Aaron
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Mar 28, 2015 - 09:18am PT
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My thought is to never alter the design on something that is a life safety product. I just buy the bigger hanger. Your son's life might someday depend on the quality of my work.
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
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Mar 28, 2015 - 10:19am PT
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Oso Flaco,
The Fixe Triplex was originally designed to be removable, using a 12mm hanger, with the sleeve going through the hanger.
Then a few of us began using them and started discussing the potential danger of accidental pullout if the nut loosened.
Those of us in the discussion, incl. Greg Barnes of ASCA and Kevin D. of Fixe USA, seemed to arrive at a consensus. It is safer to place the sleeve into the rock, flange flush to the rock, and use a 3/8" or 10mm hanger.
Greg wrote here in 2008: "For leaving them in the rock, the ASCA uses 10mm hole hangers above the top of the sleeve. If the nut loosens, the hanger will rotate, but the bolt will not pull out by clipping it and pulling out."
I first became aware of the issue while replacing bolts during a Mt. Woodson cleanup project, 2002. We had a batch of the new "Triplex" bolts. It didn't take us long to realize that installing with the sleeve through a 12mm hanger was a bad idea.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Mar 28, 2015 - 11:09am PT
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Interesting thoughts on the Triplex installation. I'm still chewing on the idea.
Would be interested to read what others think about this idea?
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Mar 28, 2015 - 11:16am PT
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Aaron,
I misread your post. I was thinking you were using 1/2" 5-piece and removing the plastic sleeve so you could use the smaller hanger. I have heard of people doing this and I have always felt that plastic sleeve was put there for a reason. I have never placed a tri-plex so I can't really make a judgement, but what Kevin and Greg say makes sense. Maybe ask a Fixi engineer to respond.
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Dimes
Social climber
Retired from Everything
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Mar 29, 2015 - 08:27pm PT
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Dimes
Social climber
Retired from Everything
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Mar 29, 2015 - 08:52pm PT
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In regards to comments regarding the Fixe Tri-Plex bolt. The Fixe website has an instructional video which shows the bolt being placed thru the hanger. These are occasionally used here in Josh for replacing and are placed this way with blue Lock-Tite applied to the threads. Mostly we use the SS 1/2" 5 Piece Powers bolts. These have been found to be more durable on the more popular climbs and tend to suffer less hole erosion from constant falls and people hanging on the bolts, yes even on 5.7 climbs. Seems now days that hanging on gear is more in vogue, thereby putting more stress on the fixed gear than in the past.
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Dimes
Social climber
Retired from Everything
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Mar 29, 2015 - 09:00pm PT
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Hey treez, actually the bolt is screwed on to a handle with threads on it and used to drill an exact depth hole. Then you pull the bolt back out, remove it from the handle, put the pin in the bottom of the bolt as shown here and pound it in to the hole. That is how it obtains its pullout strength. The bolt with the hanger is then screwed in to the sleeve.
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Dimes
Social climber
Retired from Everything
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Mar 29, 2015 - 09:07pm PT
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Mar 29, 2015 - 09:59pm PT
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I replaced several of those on Roxon's Direct South Face, Direct Variation, last season.
With a regular tuning fork the bolt broke every time.( I was trying to pry the bolt out of the insert=not too smart) After I made a 1/2" tuning fork to get outside the insert they popped right out, insert and all. Many must have failed during placement or from falls because there were several large, kinda square, holes to patch. (Like hole chiseled out for finger locks) I will go back up and see how my patch job held up this season. All were replaced with ASCA SS 3/8" Powers 5-Piece in new holes.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Mar 29, 2015 - 11:31pm PT
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As Treez pointed out the self-drive is pretty bogus as the cutting teeth(and I use that term loosely) are not hardened steel so they get dull very quickly. I have heard stories of having to use 5-6 of these just to get one(1) hole drilled deep enough for the pin and sleeve. That's not good in anyone's book.
Personally, I can't find anything positive about this type of bolt.
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jaaan
Trad climber
Chamonix, France
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Mar 30, 2015 - 01:30am PT
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does anyone know what the advantages of that system would be
In climbing, no. If Petzl still sell them, then it's probably for cavers(?) - Petzl is a caving company as much as a climbing equipment one. The hole is drilled and sleeve and wedge inserted and hanger installed. The caver descends into the cave. However, on re-ascending takes the hanger off, leaving the sleeve in place. Subsequent teams just have to carry a bag of hangers and bolts. This works fine for cavers in an SRT system as the bolts are only for belays and occasionally re-belays and not for protection when leading as in a climbing application ie the caver is standing still at a belay or hanging on the rope at a re-belay, not climbing. The advantage (in the past in the UK, anyway) that it was less expensive to equip caves that way and that to some extent they could check the condition of the insert every time they placed a hanger. I seem to remember from my very limited contact with caves and cavers in Derbyshire that there was a certain pride in being able to rig a descent as quickly and efficiently as possible - that included being dextrous enough in the cold and wet and maybe wearing gloves to fit and tighten bolts and hangers. So in answer to treez' post, maybe 'reason' is a better word than 'advantage'.
When climbers started to use bolts on the crags they just borrowed this system (I mean the type of bolt) from cavers as they didn't really know any better.
I said somewhere above that these things are still in use in climbing applications in France on lots of crags - by this I mean that there are still lots of them in place and NOT that they are still being placed.
I've placed quite a few of these in the past and often one placement would require several sleeves to obtain just one hole as the teeth would just break off - exactly as someone said above.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Mar 30, 2015 - 06:29am PT
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We used those self-drillers for a while a long time ago. How many you had to use to get a hole depended (obviously) on the hardness of the rock you were drilling in, but they worked well enough in desert granite.
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