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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Sep 13, 2006 - 11:16pm PT
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fair enough. i keep forgetting there is a gaping cultural divide beteen taco and my home port, b.com, where verbal rough-and-tumble with your best of freinds is the name of the game....
and it goes a little something like this: http://www.boldering.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=19150&hl=hate
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 13, 2006 - 11:21pm PT
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bvb for those of us that dont know steve, he did call ammon out. but the point is what he is saying is right. not only that, he is probably some kind of smart mofo for lurking and hitting an opportune moment.
aside from steve vs ammon. the discussion was needed.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Sep 13, 2006 - 11:23pm PT
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yes, exactly.
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Standing Strong
Mountain climber
the other side
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Sep 13, 2006 - 11:29pm PT
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Why couldn't Steve broach the topic differently? It's smarter to kick someone when they're up, but you're the one who's going to fall harder because that kind of bitterness is going to bring you down.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 11:40pm PT
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Post #200 and what have we decided?
It would be good if we climbed clean and this thread was poorly titled.
We are soooo phuking brilliant.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 13, 2006 - 11:58pm PT
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red bvb's link, hahaha, perhaps the st could use some of that sh&&. hahaha
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Sep 14, 2006 - 12:23am PT
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that's just how we roll, g.
fyi, i boulder with most of those guys all the time. we try to set the bar as low as possible. i do beleive we are unsurpassed as a climbing website for being the most tasteless and disrespectful rat's nest of cretins on the planet.
jesus wept.
we now return you to our regularly schedule program, but i do beleive this one has been beat to death. it would be wonderful to see the many sub-topics, as well as the main issue raised by SG, continue to be discussed. as climbing evolves into an ever-higher lifeform, the points raised by all will hopefully move center stage.
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 14, 2006 - 01:02am PT
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Steve, your statement “People like myself that push the limits of possibility [of] aid climbing … and do so without diminishing the experience of those that follow deserve everyones respect. … To climb gripped by fear or the need for security erodes clarity of purpose and judgement leading to thoroughly uninspired climbing and poor style. Inspired climbing serves as a means to access the potential in ALL OF US to rise up and do better by reaching inside and summoning what is required to meet a challenge well …[etc]” is some really nice rhetoric, but does it apply to you? The only climb I’ve done of yours was the SA of Horse Play in which the first hole was a bolt about 35 feet off of Truck Stop at the crux of the route. I never touched your bolt as I blew past with an unmodified #2 head in a natural pocket. The only rationale I could see for the bolt was to protect against a nasty fall onto a ledge some 25 feet down. I can’t judge your climbing by one incident. Hopefully it was an anomaly to a long career. But it seems a little wild for you to be the one to call into question Ammon’s ego, motives, ability, or ethics over a single placement which you find objectionable.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 14, 2006 - 01:11am PT
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MSmith,
Maybe Susan lead that pitch and not Steve?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 01:26am PT
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MSmith,
I'm disappointed in you. Can't we get beyond nitpicking and address the basic issue?
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 01:50am PT
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Dixiegal
your post absolutely nailed the issue. I was searching for the right words, but would never have been as astute as you. As for you Steve, what in the world is your problem? You have done many amazing things in your life, both climbing and in your work. Why taint it all being so unpleasant? You built me the finest home climbing gym in the world (well, the finest I'm aware of) and yet you have never had the chance to see it or climb there because you got wierd with me too. Jeez, man, you put up the first ascent of Jolly Rogers, and I'm pretty sure soloed another El Cap FA. That's so awesome, but who gives a crap about someone who treats others so poorly? My recommendation is to treat those around you with respect, and they will most certainly respect you. Trashing Ammon (who I do not know) like that was not called for.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 01:52am PT
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Has Ronbo become RONdney King? "Can't we all just get along?"
Oh come on, Ron. You know I'm just razzin' ya and think you're OK. =)
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 14, 2006 - 02:32am PT
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“Maybe Susan lead that pitch and not Steve?”
That’s possible. If so, I’ll retract my attack and apologize. Since it was the first pitch and Steve’s name is listed first as FA I assumed it was his lead. But you know what happens when you ASSuME…
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 14, 2006 - 02:32am PT
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“Can't we get beyond nitpicking and address the basic issue?”
Fair enough in that whatever SG has or hasn’t done on his routes is irrelevant to how we evaluate Ammon. Not sure I can go along with describing my comment as “nitpicking.” It would seem that when someone launches an attack thread over one questionable placement and then applauds himself as “pushing the limits of aid climbing” so as to “deserve everyone’s respect” (in contrast to that dirty dog who made a sullied placement), pointing out the fact that the attacker has done far worse than the attacked is a little more substantive than “nitpicking.” But maybe when it comes to SG I have too much baggage of my own.
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poop_tube
Big Wall climber
33° 45' N 117° 52' W
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Sep 14, 2006 - 02:44am PT
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Wuddup Hummerchine
Hey Clint Cummings, I met you at the needles. I was the dude grunting on fancy free
cheers!
Kia
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cybele
Ice climber
finally, west of the Mississippi
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Sep 14, 2006 - 04:59am PT
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Way to be zen Ammon. I didn't like the tone in the initial posting. Well now most has been said that I wanted to say, and said better. I'll add this though...against my better judgement.
After some wild clean pitches on the admittedly limited walls I've done, I think that my duty now is to remind myself, force myself, to limit fun spicy clean-aid tinkering so as to save time in my leading. Yes that's true I am resolved to nail MORE. (I'm gonna get really slammed; why am I opening myself up for this?). Ok, so, I really dig clean problemsolving. I've even finally stood on the smallest zero cam (purple) instead of a knifeblade. I've put in lots of HB 0s, maybe dozen green zero cams in LA scars, ball nuts etc, etc., and sometimes, not always, but sometimes what it brought besides a little thrill at my cleverness, and adrenaline, and a little less rock damage in that spot, was for my poor partners to sit for maybe hours longer and be on a route longer overall. And too, that I never learned to nail on the easier nailing routes, so now on trickier routes where it might really matter my nailing skills pretty much suck. Yes, there are worthy ideals of cleaner climbing to strive towards as a community. But everything has a result or price for the individual. The initial posting asked about the
price of a certain style. If Ammon took three minutes more to make a clean placement or I took three hours more to lead a pitch clean is the ethic the same even though the price is different? Does the climber's style and ability affect the ethic? What about other criteria?
Should I not climb a route if I can't climb it fast enough clean but can climb it clean? What if I am too short to reach a tricky clean placement ? Should the ethic be different for someone 5'2" versus 6'2"? I've had partners tell my sorry ass just nail to avoid the fifteen or more minutes of diddling trying to scrape a little dirt out behind a crystal to place a little HB. Maybe if Ammon spent more minutes there he would have found the RP. Or maybe not. Should I hope that "just 5 minutes more" will yield the elusive clean placement, or should I head or nail and get on with it? I am slow enough as it is. And for those who don't even LIKE thin clean stuff, should they never climb another barely clean aid route till they learn to like dicey clean aid?
So, speaking of speed, a motercycle just went by at 1 am in front of the library in a 35 zone , going over LA highway speed, like, full throttle scaryfkng fast, and ten seconds behind him sure enough the siren. Here comes da man, the rider was totally going for the elude pursuit. I can hear him turn and accelerate again, and now I hear another siren joining in. The one cop alone would never catch him. I am imagining the adrenaline
this guy must be juicing. Oh now here comes a fkng helicopter. Oh no there's two! He may be done in!
Technology has changed the limits of what is possible, but having the latest goods is expensive. Um, how about money as a decision motivator, for example, "pitons are cheaper than hybrid aliens and zero cams" Should a poor person who only can afford pitons and a basic set of free rack, no "specialty gear" have to "wait to climb the route" till s/he gets better gear, say, doubles at least of hybrids, micronuts, ball nuts, and cam hooks? (A steep use fee would help attract wealthier climbers with better clean gear, how bout that). What about this that and the other thing? I don't know for sure. Do you? Of course minimize impact whenever "possible." So Ammon should only do clean ascents? What about fixed gear? Should you leave nailed gear to damage the rock less, as a penalty for being talented? (Pease do maybe I can booty it, ...oh sorry).
Speed has always been a value in the mountains. Is a speed challenge a bogus goal? Is clean climbing the only valid goal? What about when it conflicts with other goals? Is there a moral imperative and how absolute is it? Where draw the lines? What to do when rationales for things differ and contradict? I can think of reasons I believe that things are questionable that another doesn't. Is there ethics without "belief," ie, objective ethics? Where does style become judgeable or judged against, doesn't it depend on the decision criteria where style becomes ethics?
And just for fun what happens if we zoom out (or in) the focus? What is the enverinmental impact of the manufacture of pitons versus hybrid aliens? Does it matter? This is, after all, about preserving just the route -- not the planet -- for the next climbers. So then the above-mentioned hauling damage is irrelevent, it's not hurting the route for future climbers. Have you seen the white scrape up the Prow? So what? A massive population reduction would help on a number of fronts. Ugh.
Sheesh, see why I lurk mostly and shouldn't post up? I don't even know what this says when I reread it. Oh well. I promise
from now on to be a good girl with my new laptop, really. If I sound like a long winded as#@&%e, I am sorry, it's late, and I guess I am one.
I think they got the guy. I think I hear the helicopter hovering in one spot for at least 10 minutes now, but it's really far away so I can't tell if that's the helicopter or another city noise. I'd bet that if they caught him, it's in the news, cause it makes the cops look good and they'll call the papers themselves with it, but if they didn't catch him, it's not, cause that makes the cops look bad.
I guess I'm really just saying damn can you be a little polite.
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John Fowler
Trad climber
SLC
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Sep 14, 2006 - 09:42am PT
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For the folks that need to nail something there are still far more nailing routes at moderate grades than the handfull of clean routes. Why not have these clean route stand; similar to respecting an FA? It appears to just be selfish pride that drives someone to not climb a route in the least destuctive manner. Again, most clean routes are NOT super dangerous or hard (most less than C3+ and by todays standards that is moderate). In a sense the first clean ascent of a route is like an FA (IMO). The clean ascent also marks the slowing in the evolution of the route. This is good for the future. And yes, wait or back off if you are not prepared to meet the requirements/demands of the route. You can learn a lot by backing off, both technically and mentally. If we ALL work and strive for the ideal we can achieve a better climbing environment for everyone.
John Fowler
P.S.
The blade placement on CT was not used during the clean ascent. The only fixed gear was a bolt ladder and the belays.
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 14, 2006 - 11:08am PT
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“For the folks that need to nail something there are still far more nailing routes at moderate grades than the handfull of clean routes. Why not have these clean route stand; similar to respecting an FA? It appears to just be selfish pride that drives someone to not climb a route in the least destuctive manner.”
John, you've zeroed in on the issue. SG’s intitial post to this thread is basically as assertion that once someone does a clean ascent, it’s a new route totally owned by them and their ethic. That’s an assertion I have a hard time accepting. (To extend the questions posed by cybele) imagine if the Nose was a speed climbers paradise, all fast and clean except for one pin. Then someone comes along and with an hour's work squeaks past the pin with a placement formed by 6 precisely placed opposing hooks. Now what? Everyone off the route who doesn’t do the opposing hook variation? And what if the new FAionist doesn’t feel inclined to make it known how he pulled it off, just that he did pull it off? Do we just decide to not do the Nose because there are so many other routes to do? I think that criticizing Ammon’s ascent of CT is unreasonable.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 11:14am PT
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"Its a new route owned by,...."
Huh?
This isn't about "ownership", its about what constitutes ethical behavior.
Does just wanting to do something because others have done it and you want to also justify doing whatever you want?
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 14, 2006 - 11:42am PT
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"Does just wanting to do something because others have done it and you want to also justify doing whatever you want?"
Certainly not. But this is not a binary issue, which is the impression I've taken from SG and some of the other posts. Between "doing whatever you want" and my example of the opposing hooks are a lot of shades of gray. Each ascent has to be evaluated on its own facts. I don't see Ammon's ascent as unreasonable or a violation of climbing community ethics in general.
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