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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Nov 16, 2014 - 07:34am PT
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Dawkins bombast broke the taboo and got this much needed conversation going. He was one of the provocative icebreakers that rattled the publics interest enough to ensure sufficient viewership for tamer treatments. Programs like this are a reaction to New Atheism, bit Dawkins focus on the damage religion has done remains invaluable, however bitter the pill
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 16, 2014 - 08:06am PT
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Dawkins hasn't said sh!t.
Same bullsh!t atheists said thousands of years ago.
Nothing new ......
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PhilG
Trad climber
The Circuit, Tonasket WA
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Nov 16, 2014 - 08:11am PT
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Jan, thanks for a very educational and interesting link.
I learned a long time ago that it is usually pointless and a waste of time to argue with someone about there beliefs. The ability to believe is a strong force in homo sapiens.
In the spirit of one day we'll all get along, I offer the following Sunday morning spiritual:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Nov 16, 2014 - 08:58am PT
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???
Debating belief is precisely how change happens.
And change does happen.
It's happening right now with regards to religion in a huge why, precisely because people are now arguing, discussing, debating, and questioning.
Once an idea is seeded, it may be rejected at first to be considered later, or just lie there sewing the tiniest bit of doubt which may or may not come to anything, but there's no removing it.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 16, 2014 - 09:42am PT
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Yes you can waste your time for millions of lifetimes debating "Beliefs".
Belief is worthless ultimately without scientific proof.
So go on for your many many incarnations of lifetimes to waste your time debating beliefs .....
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Nov 16, 2014 - 10:59am PT
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What I found interesting about the Nordic video is not so much the religious subject treated therein ; but what the video and other examples of recent examinations have revealed about the Nordic countries.
It's not surprising to me that Nordic peoples are typically anti-Christian in the broadest sense. Because of their traditional remoteness ,these cultures had been allowed to flourish as pagan strongholds in some cases well into the 18th century. The various transformations that gripped the rest of Europe from the decline of pagan Rome to medieval times then to the Renaissance and then the Reformation, the Enlightenment and so on---did not occur there ; nor did these historical developments have an concurrent transformative effect on a relatively insulated traditional culture--- a culture rich in beautiful, transcendent folklore --- as our Norwegian chaperone, Marlow, has often attested.
As a matter of fact --- it is not much of a stretch to imagine marauding Vikings scoping out church spires in places like Ireland, or along the coast of France or England---as choice killing and looting grounds. The local peoples went to great lengths to tone down the salient aspects of these communities, such as scaling back the height of spires---in order to evade detection from Norse mariners on the prowl for rape and plunder.
Moreover, these invaders must have returned to their native fiords with detailed reports of the effete weakness and grovelling stupidity of these Early Christian communities ,ripe for the plucking. Nordic campfires must have been routinely regaled by hearty descriptions of obsequious monks and huddled villagers alternately praying and then meekly accepting their grisly fate---much like their strange 'savior' who once willingly submitted to a similar fate some thousand years before.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Nov 16, 2014 - 03:32pm PT
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So now you're espousing rape and pillage as heroic manly virtues?
And how does this correspond to the present day pacifism of the Nordic countries?
Secularism has made them effete and obsequious perhaps?
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Nov 16, 2014 - 03:50pm PT
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So now you're espousing rape and pillage as heroic manly virtues? Does this mean we should get reinvolved in the middle east or is that only for past times? What about dueling? Better than praying?
What?
I'm not espousing anything of the sort.
The Middle East?
LOL
My remarks above are nothing more or less than disinterested historical observations intended to illustrate aspects of the subject at hand. I am not espousing any particular contentious viewpoint in this case.
Pretty rude comments of yours. You need to read my post with the same disinterested intent in which I meant them and not let your grudge or chip-on-the shoulder or whatever it is get the best of you.
I could walk you through the post in question but I don't think you would get it the second time either.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Nov 16, 2014 - 04:09pm PT
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It's not surprising to me that Nordic peoples are typically anti-Christian in the broadest sense.
 Not sure if this is meant to be a joke but on the face it is blatantly wrong... anybody else see that?
Nordic people at typically "anti-christian" in any sense is ridiculous...
Anti - a person opposed to a particular policy, activity, or idea.
I can't say that I've heard of any Nordic people are being much "anti" anything...
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Nov 16, 2014 - 04:21pm PT
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Did you watch the video and note the graph illustration indicating the religiosity of Nordic countries as compared to the U.S. ? As well as the observation by the American who went about asking with a microphone that most of the people he encountered were bluntly anti-religious, meaning by implication " anti-Christian". All these indications jibe fairly tightly with contemporary Scandanavians own self-characterizations in this regard as being extroidinarily anti-religious as compared to most other nations and cultures.
In my previous post I openly hinted partially at why this could be true. I did so because I believe that few people are appreciative of the sometimes intricate history of why these things could be true---preferring instead to see these matters as the most recent manifestations of their own particular axe to grind.( "ice axe" to grind ,that is)
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 16, 2014 - 04:39pm PT
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I wish that Galileo could speak from the grave on this topic.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 16, 2014 - 04:43pm PT
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Galileo is still here.
You have to use the right tuning instrument.
The modern lab coats have no clue how to do ......
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Nov 16, 2014 - 05:21pm PT
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And how does this correspond to the present day pacifism of the Nordic countries?
It's a pretty common idea there that they managed to get rid of their hooligans by sending them all out a-viking, leaving behind the more reasonable, subdued and introverted types to carry on.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Nov 16, 2014 - 06:15pm PT
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Once an idea is seeded, it may be rejected at first to be considered later, or just lie there sewing the tiniest bit of doubt which may or may not come to anything, but there's no removing it.
This sounds close to the christian vangelical model. To plant the seed of "Jesus" and allow God to nurture it. Either way, "considering it later", then maybe the act to change One's mind, drop the Id, put a bridle to the halter of one's own Ego. Can i dare say,,, is empirical proof to the elusive so-called "Free-Will"! Science shows us everwhere we look when there's an Effect,there was a determined Cause. But where in Nature, besides "Life" have we ever seen an "Effect" happen from its own ordinance? Has an Electron ever changed direction because "It wanted to"? Does the Universe, does our Solar Sytem, (without Earth and her inhabitants) have the ability to consciously change direction from the determined Cause justified by the Laws of Nature inorder to change the destined determined Effect? An example being; can we change the direction of the en-evadable over heating of the planet by going in a different direction than the one we're headed on now? We could just not consider Change. Or, we could just say,"Fuc It!", and build bigger rockets, and trucks and burn more and all the "Fossil Fuel" and not "give a Damn" to the future or the weak that die from pollution. OR we could come clean and admit that making up a Law that says you must pay a fine if you emit to much pollution, does NOT heal the planet. And ONLY bumps the Electron out of its trajectory momentarily. And is not a Change-By-Will! The term "Experience" could almost be substituted for "Effect", if your expecting a determined Effect/Experience from a determined Cause, how many ways are out there for a deflection? 2? Free-Will, and "Chance"? "Chance" being a lot of time allowing for a lot of bouncing back-an-forth. Only being interrupted by an alien UFO. Whereas Free-Will as the power to Veto!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Nov 16, 2014 - 06:21pm PT
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"It's a pretty common idea there that they managed to get rid of their hooligans by sending them all out a-viking, leaving behind the more reasonable, subdued and introverted types to carry on".
This is a common European theme. The Scandinavians sent the bad Vikings away to other countries and the British, French, and Germans have all told me that they sent their religious fanatics to the New World and thus are more sensible about the subject. And I was just reading about Benjamin Franklin complaining bitterly about the British dumping their convicts on our shores.
Some of these ideas can now be tested by DNA. It has in fact been discovered that a number of the early colonial settlers to Virginia have descendants who test as Haplogroup I1 which is Viking DNA when found in Britain. Apparently the descendants of those who raided and settled the coasts of Britain, were also among the first to move on to the New World.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 16, 2014 - 06:22pm PT
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Tvash: Debating belief is precisely how change happens.
Exactly right, and I’m all for it--as long as you are not going to restrict how arguments can be made or supported.
For those arguing about Scandinavian culture characteristics and comparisons, you might have an interest in this research:
http://www.novsu.ru/file/1092483
(Please note how much of this is considered mental “programming.”)
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Nov 16, 2014 - 06:57pm PT
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Fascinating paper Mike. I have encountered all those ideas in Anthropology and Asian Studies research but from a social and cultural point of view rather than a business oriented one. It is always interesting to see familiar ideas applied in a new context - and vice versa.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Nov 16, 2014 - 08:23pm PT
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Nov 16, 2014 - 05:21pm PT
And how does this correspond to the present day pacifism of the Nordic countries?
It's a pretty common idea there that they managed to get rid of their hooligans by sending them all out a-viking, leaving behind the more reasonable, subdued and introverted types to carry on.
but maybe, the earliest Neanderthal Nords(the red-head ones) didn't hear from god for a couple days(or a couple million years) and he knew-not of sacrifice, or forgiveness, or Love? And they did act like animals. Back then. But now days, all the Nords i know, including my family, came to the US to be more Christian.( which seems silly, but everyone has their own Zion.) Most prospered well with a fighting hard-working lineage. But many of those missed the mark in Spirituality because of being consoled under the Law of the old testament. Prolly why we're waring over Law today?
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Nov 16, 2014 - 11:31pm PT
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Secular people believe things for no good reason all the time. Politics and social policy are two examples.
Our secular social "scientists" have created a modern society where the weak and dumb are outbreeding the strong and smart.
I am agnostic but I don't see a contradiction in science and religion.
to paraphrase JEleazarian:
"Faith starts where the observable reality ends".
I only object to religion when it has the power to coerce me into anything.
Religion in America doesn't have that power.
Religion in much of the Middle East does.
BASE104's posts on cosmology are awesome. Great thoughts from Largo as well. I enjoy pondering the excellent points made.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Nov 16, 2014 - 11:43pm PT
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Secular people believe things for no good reason all the time. Politics and social policy are two examples.
This is a point I have been making for quite some time on threads like this. Simply because one is atheistic does not automatically confer a magical immunity from creation and indulgence in the pernicious foibles and follies of mankind and faith in convenient mythologies. They simply take a different rationalized form but the result is often the same. Malcolm Muggeridge satirically illustrated this point when he famously said that: "Liberalism is Christ without the cross"
As egregious as some Christian or religionist spokesmen can be ---at the end of the day their collective negative effect is much less than many in government and elsewhere in the popular culture who do not claim a religious mentality or motivation for their core beliefs and the inevitable outcomes.
Of course this same thing cannot be said as regards those areas of the world under the dark pall of psychopathic jihadists.
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