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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Aug 14, 2014 - 01:34am PT
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WOW!
This thread went from one man offering a handshake and a prayer to, other men(notice the small M) wanting to boot Christians out of the USA, and ALL the religious of the planet.
In a similar fashion this is whats been happening to Christians for thousands of years, starting with Jesus.
You got that goin for ya micronut!!
Praise On!
Edit: i like that last phraise Praise On, Praise On, Praise On!
is there a song with that in it somewhere?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 14, 2014 - 07:04am PT
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this is the result of reading further...^^^^^^^
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 14, 2014 - 07:06am PT
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I don't relish people not going to church. I don't care either way.
What I do care about, and actively oppose with both effort and money, is fundamentalist Christianity's bigotry, misogyny, and ignorance.
Every Born Again I've ever met came to the church after some major life crisis - most commonly some form of addiction. In my experience, few healthy, happy people suddenly up and decide their life sucks and choose Jesus.
And that's fine - if Jesus helps you get healthy, I'm all for decreasing human misery.
The problem is - Born Agains and their fundamentalist brethren, freed from the misery of their inner demons, then turn around and increase human misery for others by attempting to prevent 30 million American's from marrying the person they love, forcing women, particularly the poorest, youngest women, to bear children they neither want nor can support, and giving money to support policies in African nations that persecute and imprison people for their sexuality.
Yeah, I have a big problem with that.
I also have a problem with any movement that relies on and promotes ignorance for, as the Buddhists say, ignorance causes suffering. And fundamentalist Christianity is the poster child for ignorance. Xenophobia, religious jealousy, the literal Bible, creationism, homosexuality as a choice, the drive for an American caliphate….the list is long and tragic, here.
It's not invitation only either. Since the beginning, Christians have attempted to force their cult on all of us by force of law, often with great success.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2014 - 07:20am PT
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Tvash I'm sorry you have such a misunderstanding of Christianity and what Christians believe. A lot of your statements are just plain old wrong about the true nature of what Christians believe. When I read your posts I'm like "huh... I don't believe that.....and neither do the hundreds of Christian friends and family that I have."
Its strange. Your views are such a disconnect from a real Christianity experience. Oh well, this thread was just me reaching out an offer to share something that means a lot to me. Carry on yall. I hope your summer climbing plans are happening and that you stay stoked.
See you in the hills,
Scott
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 14, 2014 - 07:37am PT
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I'm sorry you have such a misunderstanding of Christianity and what Christians believe.
His is nothing compared to mine. My "misunderstanding" of Christianity concerns (a) exorcism, (b) limbo, (c) purgatory, (d) resurrection (e) ascension (f) virgin birth (g) original sin...
It's a good thing today's young people - the hope of the future - don't get their life lessons or philosophy of life from me, eh? ;)
.....
What I'm still unclear about though where perhaps you can shed some light for me... are you a "literalist" or "select literalist"?
We pretty much know already where go-b, klimmer, illusion dweller, cragman, triple7 and a few others stand.
It's relevant because it's clear several that post here are absolutely convinced that religious folk don't really believe what they say they believe or what they post they believe. I wonder if it's the same (pretend or metaphor or just storytelling) with Muslims, the Christian's sibling brethren...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOaBNbdUbcA
Half the solution to a problem is correctly identifying the problem to begin with.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Aug 14, 2014 - 07:39am PT
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Allan be praised!
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skitch
climber
East of Heaven
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Aug 14, 2014 - 07:41am PT
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The great thing about Christianity is it is an evolving religion, I even know some openly gay people that are Christians!!!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 14, 2014 - 07:59am PT
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if they stayed out of politics...
This is impossible, always was, always will be. Despite the popular "cant" and encouragement to do so. Christian supernaturalism at base concerns values and expressing those values, otherwise what good is it? Think, man. Same goes with politics. They both turn on (expressing) values. Really, what could be more obvious. Yet the fiction that it's possible persists.
...
More from the Christian's Abrahamic brethren (pre-pubescent, pre-reformational though); let's see what they have to say...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGQwTOsh__0
Living in the science and info age is the real blessing. Thank the Gods Zeus and Hera for this providence.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2014 - 08:13am PT
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Dave Kos,
I see that the concept of a "real Christian" that I keep using is a sticking point or a point of confusion for many. So let me try to put it in a nutshell, because it is super important in the context of a "conversation" like this.
Christian basically means somebody who has repented of their selfish sinful ways and surrendered their lives to a saving grace offered by Jesus Christ. The hallmark of a true Christian is a new life, one characterized by what we call the fruit of the spirit. Meaning you are like a new tree, bearing fruit that looks like the life of Christ.
The character of a Christian exemplifies love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness and self control.
That is how you can tell a true Christian. They are repentant. They are humble. The fabric of their character is imprinted with the above traits. They look different than the world around them. We believe the whole bible in its entirety to be a perfect and infallible word of God. That's pretty much it. If somebody says they are a Christian, goes to church....is a preacher, a teacher, a giver of millions to the church...whatever, if their live does not reflect the above attributes or they pick and choose from the Bible to make it fit their ethos or beliefs or their politic, they are not a Christian. No matter what they claim. The Bible is VERY clear on what a Christian is and what one isn't. Sadly for many of us, the church is full of folks who hang around and claim the faith and walk out the door each sunday and go deny Christ with their actions.
SO that's it in a nutshell. You now have a bit of a measuring stick for discerning real Christians from posers. But the truth is, only God knows a mans heart and its not my place to judge. I feel like discernment is important, but ultimately the choice to believe is between man and the God that created him.
Hope that helped a bit.
Scott
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 14, 2014 - 08:21am PT
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Nicely stated Scott and I am sure you fit the definition. Unfortunately, I would posit that only a tiny percentage of "avowed Christians" fit the bill as you describe it.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2014 - 08:23am PT
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"climber"
"real climber"
Maybe this is kinda how I feel sometimes. Its like when a "climber" gets stranded and makes us all look like idiots. I'm always kinda like "wel....that guy wasn't a real climber really....sorry he's making us look bad."
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 14, 2014 - 08:25am PT
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"underground" Christian churches...
Yeah, like American Christians in the land of freedom are really going to settle for that. Yeah, lol!
.....
Am I the only one who read this...
"We believe the whole bible in its entirety to be a perfect and infallible word of God."
Sounds pretty traditional and fundamentalist and literal (not even "select literal") to me. But perhaps I'm interpreting it wrong.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2014 - 08:49am PT
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Dave,
I think it is important that you have a bit of a rational way to discern real Christians from those who claim to be so that you can see them both in their proper light.
Many people "hate Christianity" or "dislike Christians" based on the non Christians they know or institutions that claim a Christian base.
I want you to have a proper view of a God. That's all. And you asked, so I did my best to answer the question.
Also, no, I don't have full discernment who is a Christian or not. But human's actions speak volumes. Same with anybody. You claim to be a Green Bay Packer fan? What was Bart Star's number? You say you're a climber? Don't wear your PAS between your legs and don't ask me where the Ironman Traverse is when you're in Camp 4.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2014 - 08:51am PT
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High Fructose,
We believe the whole bible in its entirety to be a perfect and infallible word of God
Yeah. I'm all in.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2014 - 08:52am PT
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Thanks Jim,
and yeah...
Unfortunately, I would posit that only a tiny percentage of "avowed Christians" fit the bill as you describe it. I agree with your statement here fully.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Aug 14, 2014 - 08:58am PT
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Just for grins folks.....
Why Can't I Own a Canadian?
October 2002
Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a east coast resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as informative:
Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:
When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
Your devoted fan,
Jim
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Aug 14, 2014 - 09:06am PT
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Micronut: "I want you to have a proper view of a God."...
Locker's comment: Strange to me that anyone believes they KNOW...
And, I'll add... at the same time - claiming to be humble... (which is part of being a true Christian according to Micronut)
Micronut: The character of a Christian exemplifies love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness and self control.
That is how you can tell a true Christian. They are repentant. They are humble. The fabric of their character is imprinted with the above traits. They look different than the world around them.
I would rather see that as real Christian self-promotion... or being a "poseur"...
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skitch
climber
East of Heaven
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Aug 14, 2014 - 09:13am PT
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micronut: Many people "hate Christianity" or "dislike Christians" based on the non Christians they know or institutions that claim a Christian base.
I wouldn't say I hate christianity or christians, but what I dislike about them is due to very real christians, that believe the same "stuff" that you believe.
The biggest reasons I don't believe any more (despite this stupid christian fish tattoed on my arm) is because of the "real christians" take on Homosexuality, Science and Evolution.
The evolution part is really funny since the "Real Christian Church" has changed so much over the last 2,000 years.
micronut: Also, no, I don't have full discernment who is a Christian or not. But human's actions speak volumes. Same with anybody. You claim to be a Green Bay Packer fan? What was Bart Star's number? You say you're a climber? Don't wear your PAS between your legs and don't ask me where the Ironman Traverse is when you're in Camp 4.
So a real christian is able to judge other people. . .
Daniel Tosh:
I always wondered if those WWJD bracelets worked, so I bought one the other day. Does everybody have their WWJD bracelets on? ‘Cause I was wearing my bracelet recently, and I was in the movie theater, and this guys cell phone went off – - don’t you just hate that? Then he picked it up, “Hey, how’s it going? I’m in a movie.” And so I say….and I’m not going to censor myself here “Hey buddy, Get off the phone please!” And he’s like, “Mind your own business as#@&%e.” Oh, now there is trouble in River City. I’m a man, not much of one, but a man, and I will choke you if you are smaller, younger, and preferably white. So I reach over the seat, and at that moment I see my bracelet: What Would Jesus Do? So I lit him on fire and sent him to Hell.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2014 - 09:46am PT
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We all make judgements about people all the time. Don't we?
"Do I go up and help that sketchy meth-head guy at midnight in the hood or is there a likelihood he's a bad guy and I'll get mugged?"
"That dude stole some gear from me last summer, I don't trust him."
"That girl is drama. She gossips about all my buddies...I'll steer clear of her."
In these cases we are judging character based on actions or making a stereotype based on appearances and our past experiences about a person. Sometimes we're right, sometimes we are wrong, but we should not be judging the content of their heart or the person as a whole.
The key is not to judge and condemn. Only God can judge the soul and heart of man. It is not our job and not the mark of anybody who wants to trust in or emulate Jesus or the teachings of the bible.
Does that make sense?
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