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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 23, 2014 - 10:53pm PT
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Go do an overhanging crack less limestone wall and see how far you get.
Which is easier: figuring out the moves on an decently overhung wall on TR / DWS where you can't rest or on bolted lead where you can?
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jun 24, 2014 - 07:22am PT
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Ed..you are stuck on best style thing to point of obsessing. Most climbers would disagree with you.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jun 24, 2014 - 07:28am PT
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Joe wrote: And to each his own, but frankly I find the concepts of 'community service' (in a route context) and 'crag development' both a wee bit nauseating. But hey, don't get me wrong, I fully understand the predominant aural landscape in places like Eldo long ago transitioned from 'Falling!' to 'Take!' in the wake of an expansive, commercially-driven demographic powered by the growth of gyms and climbing's progressive media integration into suburban pop culture; I've just never really seen where that has f*#kall to do with me or what drives my climbing beyond having to avoid cluster f*#ks and what are essentially outside climbing gyms, but at this point I'm cool with that.
It is all about you Joe and how you climb.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jun 24, 2014 - 07:46am PT
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Testify
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jun 24, 2014 - 09:13am PT
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All things being the same I don't judge free climbs to be better style than aid climbs.
If you have a beautiful soaring line that can never go free, that you can do, ground up, minimal impact, blah blah... Why would that be less than best style than the climb next to it that is featured enough for free climbing? Aid climbing rocks!
Case in point; the roof pitch on the Shield is as cool as any pitch on Astroman. Both are stellar, world class, climbs that have received similar impact, each in their own vernacular.
Also, I think that the original premise should be amended to acknowledge quality/aesthetics of line, though that is subjective to some extent, but still it has to be considered. It is simply better style to put up routes with stunning lines than choss heaps that get done merely because they are within the abities of an ascenctionist and have never been done for lack of appeal or close proximity of other routes.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Jun 24, 2014 - 09:54am PT
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What is the best religion, political view, or flavor of ice cream. Best is only in the eye of the beholder.
Maybe we should have a vote on what best style is.
Where is the empirical evidence that the style advocated in the original post is best.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jun 24, 2014 - 10:39am PT
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"Where is the empirical evidence that the style advocated in the original post is best."
There is none, which quite strange coming from Ed.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 24, 2014 - 11:44am PT
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It is all about you Joe and how you climb. Absolutely and exactly, I don't climb for you or anyone else and couldn't care less what, where, when, why or how you climb unless how you climb impacts or degrades the experience to be had at any given crag. It's just not a group, team or social activity for me, mainly because I'm too busy climbing and that's not why I climb.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 24, 2014 - 12:14pm PT
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Oh my indeed...
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MH2
climber
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Jun 24, 2014 - 12:18pm PT
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Get so worked up and prepared that in your mind you've already climbed it. (Randisi)
I like it. A best style accessible to all. I've done that. And not reported it.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jun 24, 2014 - 12:45pm PT
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Bob Walton's style is to always manage to have a cold beer waiting at the car after a FA. That being at the Pinnacles is the best style of all.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 24, 2014 - 12:48pm PT
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Excellent thread.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 24, 2014 - 12:54pm PT
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we could vote, but the only eligible voters are people who have been involved with first ascents...
I'd be happy to do that, the question would be interesting though, and not the one you think it would be... and it has been answered (though Bob D' hasn't said if he had put up routes in the "best style" described in the OP, not that that is a requirement).
I'm not obsessed with it, but even if I were, on the STForum, isn't it at least a bit refreshing to hash out climbing issues rather than the other political choss? After all, we could actually be effective in resolving, or at least defining the issues.
In spite of the fact that the major objection to my OP assertion is that it represents the obsessed thoughts of a person who advances a definition that was termed "absurd" by a number of people, I think we've actually come some way in this discussion.
I love to hear the tortured reasons why it is not the "best style" by people who actually know it is... so I'm not only obsessed, I'm delusional.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jun 24, 2014 - 01:19pm PT
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isn't it at least a bit refreshing to hash out climbing issues rather than the other political choss?
It is awesome to argue about climbing related things than political shiet! But than I realize we are arguing about the way we prefer to climb some rocks. : ) It might be as important as anything else in our life, but than still..it is climbing on rocks.
There is a cool TR out about weekend warrior climbing a bunch of routes. He had really good style for 4th of July : )
As someone who usually puts up GU ascents, I would say FOR ME there is not much difference in the way the route is put up, as long as I get a final satisfaction from the product/challenge. There is one particular pitch I top roped that I am planning to rap bolt in the future. Super excited about it actually, that pitch is epic. If I could ever lead it, I think I would be as happy as I was after climbing any of my awesome GU routes.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jun 24, 2014 - 01:37pm PT
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Ed wrote: I'd be happy to do that, the question would be interesting though, and not the one you think it would be... and it has been answered (though Bob D' hasn't said if he had put up routes in the "best style" described in the OP, not that that is a requirement).
Ed...I have done many FA's of trad routes drilling/gear on lead up to 5.12, I really don't want to call it the "best style". I just did them.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
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Jun 24, 2014 - 02:07pm PT
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Ed earlier stated: a first ascent usually "takes" the route once taken, it is not available to anyone else in the community to do a "first ascent" on
so it is a matter of concern to the community. further, the style with which the first ascent is done in may trigger other consequences, e.g. climbing bans by land managers. it is not just an "individual matter" it has consequences for the entire community
Interesting subject. When we were younger, we didn't always consider the full implications of what Ed stated above. And, with much more unclimbed rock and far less scrutiny on climbing activities and impacts, the concept of the best "first ascent style" was heavily influenced by our peers. The route was going to be "judged" worthy (or not), and by extension, so were we.
In the past, a bold lead was considered both a good ethic (less alteration of the rock) and style (look how cool we are). The mental and physical aspects of climbing were given more equal weight. Where the balance point moved too far toward the cerebral, routes requiring a high commitment and risk sometimes did not serve the community (or perhaps the limited rock resource) well.
The balance has obviously changed over the last 20 years, now the physical aspects generally are of prime importance -- for the good in some ways and for the worse in many others.
There seems to be a lot more focus of the end result -- what the resulting route will look like and whether it serves the community of aspirants well. This is a good trend, but subject to abuse at the risk of the loss of any adventure, mental stamina, using natural features, balancing impacts, and the overall "rich experience."
And, realistically, we are climbing harder, steeper and less featured terrain these days. As a result, there are practical limits on ending up with a good climb by blindly adhering to a minimalistic, ground up FA style.
In fact, I'd argue, that such a style may be poor style for a FA (or maybe the best for another FA), particularly when one wants to also advocate for the FA having any influence on the how the route should be climbed (or the nature and extent of fixed protection) thereafter.
Like so many things in life, it depends (on a lot of other factors).
___
Further edit: I have FA'd hundreds of routes, many in ground up, minimalistic, high stylistic points, "style." Other routes have been TR'd, wired, clips calculated, and rap drilled. In most cases, I feel that the style was "best" for the route (but, not always).
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jun 24, 2014 - 02:22pm PT
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Ed...I have done many FA's of trad routes drilling/gear on lead up to 5.12, I really don't want to call it the "best style". I just did them.
Bob, why did you do that? Curious onlooker.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jun 24, 2014 - 02:31pm PT
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I wonder what climbing would be like as a sport if routes were never recorded, topo'd and graded. You see a line and do it, and then if anyone asks, you just say, "yes, we started there, and more or less went that way, and well, yes some of it was hard for me...........there's a bolt here and there................. and,yes, no chalk as it leaves marks;
I have always liked the idea of an anonymous, libertarian climbing landscape.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jun 24, 2014 - 02:38pm PT
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Couch wrote: Bob, why did you do that? Curious onlooker.
I didn't know any better? :-)
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jun 24, 2014 - 03:26pm PT
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This question would be fun to discuss during a poker game or while driving from the Bay Area to a climbing destination. There is so much to consider and to think about…many people care to judge the style that was applied, but seems like in the grand scheme of things it changes nothing. Did Bachar Yerian make all the climbers bold? No. Did a rap bolted crack with perma-draws make all climbers think its ok to rap bolt cracks? No. Did oxygen-less ascent of Everest guarantee that every Everest climber (or even a significant number) will stop using bottled oxygen? No.
Seems like usually it is the personal challenge that each climber seeks from the climb. Even though some seek pure fun, some seek to get scared shitless, some seek adventure, some seek physical exertion and most I know enjoy some sort of a combination of these. Some get scared on 5.8 after a 5 foot runout. Some solo 5.12. We are really different. And that’s ok. Best style could range from one climber to another. Usually I think about how much out of my own comfort zone I take it, how much training time did I put in so I could give my best performance, how much harder can I make things to maintain free climbing, how much fun I/my partner are having and than I think about others who come after. For example, will those who come later think I am a dickhead because I ran it out 100 feet on a beautiful line that deserves to be often climbed by 5.7 climbers? Or will they think the bolts would be too close if I added 7 to my 100 foot runout?
Seems like those who put in a lot of time into developing their rock climbing skills usually agree that there is a variety of ways to skin the cat and to get great satisfaction from putting up a route GU or TD. Best style is usually one that satisfies the climber and if the route is worth repeating, those who come later. Personally, I noticed that some routes I have done I only cared about own experience and didn’t care if anyone would repeat it. And some were so good that I tried to improve them later to encourage others to repeat it. If route is really good its cool to know others have experienced same awesome feelings you had.
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