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Scott Patterson
Mountain climber
Craig
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May 28, 2014 - 02:16pm PT
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Ueli Steck. Experienced, skilled climbers who treat the mountain and the locals with respect.
Ueli Steck actually has a bad reputation among many of the locals. It was more than just the fist fight that was on the news. Where did you hear that the locals all like him? I'm sure there are always two sides to every story though. He is obviously an admired climber.
And on the other end of the spectrum there's people to whom getting to the summit is all they care about. They have the financial resources and single-mindedness that, in recent years
Being hell bent on the summit and putting others in danger isn't confined to just those with vast financial resources or to recent years. That is a myth.
Consider some of these examples:
Crowley, for example was an early 1900’s Himalayan explorer. He actually caused the frostbite of several porters because he talked them into thinking that he had powers that would protect them when they walked barefoot in the snow. On Kanchenjunga, he refused to help porters and fellow climbers who were caught in an avalanche because Crowley was too busy writing up his news article.
Mallory lost 7 porters in 1922 because he was overambitious in reaching the col with supplies. He admits this and it plagued his conscience.
The 1930’s saw a whole lot of porter deaths due to personal ambition.
Even the well-respected Herzog, author of the best selling mountaineering book of all time simply “forgot” to mention that one of their porters was killed on the 1950 expedition while hauling loads to camp. It wasn't his fault, but it seems that the death should have been mentioned. It is also true that his personal ambition for the summit caused the climb of a hugely risky and potentially deadly route. Still he is admired (I enjoy reading about his adventures as well). He may not have been admired had the expedition been wiped out, which was a possibility if luck had been the other way.
The 1954 K2 expedition is perhaps the greatest example of personal ambition and lack of respect for human life. Compagnoni more or less intentionally caused the permanent maiming of the greatest Hunza climber of that time period (Mahdi) just to make the expedition sound more glorious to the general public. He intentionally caused one of the greatest local climbers of all time to become a permanent cripple, with very little compensation after the fact.
How about the 1986 season on K2? Books and books have been written on that season and how personal ambition caused so many deaths.
Anyway, those are just a few very few examples.
The truth is that personal ambition in the Himalaya is nothing new, and neither is the risk posed to porters or Sherpa.
The media just focuses on the negative side now and on Everest. The same things that happen on Everest (both good and bad) happen on other mountains as well.
This doesn't excuse those those others in danger, but it is and has hardly been limited to rich and guided climbers.
K2 is seldom guided, but look at all the debacles that have happened there in recent years, including to the Sherpa.
Too bad people and the media won't focus more on the positive aspects of climbing.
But I care about style in climbing, whatever the location and altitude.
Out of curiosity, what is your style of climbing when you have climbed 6, 7, and 8000 meter peaks?
Anyway, I care about style to, but only when it effects me (or puts human life recklessly in danger), which is why the most important style is to leave the mountain clean.
If a climber wanted to use 100 bottles of oxygen while eating lobster dinners every night and had his porters carry it all, but kept them all reasonable safe, and cleaned up after himself, I really wouldn't care.
I'd be much less upset with that then a real climber leaving a big mess behind.
In my own opinion, it sounds like much of the disdain from rich guided climbers is out of jealousy. Who doesn't wish they had $100,000 of spare cash lying around that you could blow on some mountaineering expedition? You may not climb Everest with it or climb in a style that you don't agree with, but come on, you wish you could do it.
Anyway, I do know where some of the disdain comes from. I got a kick about Beck Weather's book for example, about how he made himself out to be some obsessed mountaineer, when in reality he had only climbed a few guided mountains (he was guided on Longs Peak as well). I haven't read the book lately, but it seems like he only did Longs Peak and some of the 7 Summits as well? His wife came across as a real b---- as well. Anyway, I found his writing about being an obsessed climber to be really annoying, but I hardly think that it really affects me much.
Besides, as far as rich 50 year olds that want to go an a guided adventure, how do you want them to spend their money? Invent some time machine so they can start at 20 and become a dirt bag climber and work their way up from there? Or perhaps they should stick to home and play golf with golden putters?
I don't really admire the guided climbers climbs, or consider them to be a real mountaineering accomplishment, but then again, if they leave the mountain clean, it doesn't affect me and I won't disparage them from challenging their own selves in their own way. People shouldn't climb solely to impress someone any way.
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r2d2
Trad climber
East Bay
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May 28, 2014 - 03:41pm PT
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"In my own opinion, it sounds like much of the disdain from guided climbers is out of jealousy. "
I second that.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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May 28, 2014 - 04:28pm PT
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Crunch you forgot to mention me along with Ed Webster Robert Anderson and
Stephen Venables
I'm Paul Teare . I was also on the 1988 team
I'm
The guy posting the the pictures thank you.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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May 28, 2014 - 04:43pm PT
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Doh, sorry Paul Teare.
Huge respect for that Kanshung Face climb. Showing what is possible.
Demonstrating excellent style.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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May 28, 2014 - 05:04pm PT
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"In my own opinion, it sounds like much of the disdain from guided climbers is out of jealousy. "
Really?
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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May 28, 2014 - 05:38pm PT
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Not jealous at all. If this is what you want to go through for the experience, more power to you.
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Scott Patterson
Mountain climber
Craig
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May 28, 2014 - 06:01pm PT
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Not jealous at all. If this is what you want to go through for the experience, more power to you.
I am not jealous of that either. I wouldn't want to do that climb either, especially with the crowds in the picture. I personally have no interest in climbing Everest (other than perhaps for a vague desire to see the things I've read about in historical accounts; I love mountain history).
I am however, jealous that people have $50-100K that they can drop down on a mountaineering expedition. Anyone who doesn't admit that they aren't jealous of that is probably lying. ;)
Really?
Yes, really. Otherwise why the disdain for a mountain that people claim that they don't have any interest in anyway? Other than Everest bashing has become hip and cool and is a good way to stroke one's ego.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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May 29, 2014 - 12:07am PT
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Having a good time on Everest
Can be expensive
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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May 29, 2014 - 12:18am PT
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can't really relate to wanting to spend even forty bucks to travel a well-worn trough over corpses, then stand in line to tag a summit that's been tagged hundreds, if not thousands, of times before. not climbing, not mountaineering. just serving one's ego.
I try not to be too judgmental about what people do with their lives. If someone sees it differently from me, then I'll respect that opinion. Or failing that, I'll pretend to respect the opinion.
But Christ. what a joke.
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Degaine
climber
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May 29, 2014 - 04:22am PT
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ms55401 wrote:
can't really relate to wanting to spend even forty bucks to travel a well-worn trough over corpses, then stand in line to tag a summit that's been tagged hundreds, if not thousands, of times before. not climbing, not mountaineering. just serving one's ego.
Serving one's ego is an integral part of climbing and mountaineering. Even more so if you have kids.
Now it's not all about ego, but to deny that the ego plays a key role in our mountain pursuits, well that's just incorrect.
As mentioned earlier, keeping the mountain clean, respecting the locals and other climbers is where I personally draw the line. But if you think there's an ocean, or even a gulf, between those who summit Everest as part of putting a notch in their belt, and those who continually seek out first ascents in the Himalaya (even if on difficult routes), well you're just kidding yourself. It is part of the very same ego driven, goal mentality.
I respect those who get in and get out without leaving a trace. Like others, I am fascinated by reports of ascents in the big ranges (or even smaller ones). In general, it seems as though humanity, and especially our small loose-knit mountain sports community, reserves its admiration for those who seek adventure and push beyond the edge of the envelope.
But as Scott Patterson astutely points out in the examples of mountaineering history, ego and being self-centered have been an integral part of mountaineering and climbing from the get-go, long before the conga lines.
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Degaine
climber
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May 29, 2014 - 04:33am PT
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Scott Patterson wrote:
I don't really admire the guided climbers climbs,
I doubt that people hire guides seeking your or anyone's admiration.
Scott Patterson wrote:
or consider them to be a real mountaineering accomplishment,
Define mountaineering accomplishment. Better yet, how about defining what I or anyone else besides you considers to be their own personal mountaineering accomplishments.
Scott Patterson wrote:
but then again, if they leave the mountain clean, it doesn't affect me and I won't disparage them from challenging their own selves in their own way.
I'll be sure to let the guiding community know that you won't disparage their clients. I'm sure they'll be as relieved as I am.
Scott Patterson wrote:
People shouldn't climb solely to impress someone any way.
Nor should anyone care what or how others climb if they adhere to the "keep the mountain clean/don't affect others" principle that both you and I appear to agree with.
It's the same issue with style: if I choose to pull on gear through hard sections of a climb, but leave no trace (fixed) why should it matter?
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Scott Patterson
Mountain climber
Craig
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May 29, 2014 - 09:50am PT
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Define mountaineering accomplishment.
That's the thing. It's different for everyone. I said I personally didn't consider some climbs to be mountaineering accomplishments, but I have no problem if anyone disagrees or has a different definition.
I can only define it by myself and even when I do, I have constantly changed or evolved my own definitions as time passes. For example, 10 years ago, I thought that I’d only “count” climbing a Colorado 14er if I climbed it in the calendar winter. I finished over half of them in winter, but my goal was simply taking too long and since the failure rate on the harder peaks is higher in winter, I would mind myself visiting some of the peaks multiple times and it was taking away from other things I wanted to do and climb. So I changed my own rules and definitions (the change was that I'd only count them if it was either winter or I was with my kids-unusual definition for sure, but it's mine). (I used to think and say that guided climbs never count as true ascents, but I changed my mind later and thought it should be left to the individual).
That’s the thing about mountaineering. Other than leaving the mountain clean and respecting life and others, we really don’t have to have a set of rules or definitions (other than difficulty ratings). That’s how mountaineering should be. We should all have our own goals and definitions of accomplishment. We certainly don’t have to define it for everyone else. Now, if someone is making a big mess of the mountains and being disrespectful (the flying a helicopter back and forth example someone mentioned), or putting others in danger, that does change things since it is affecting others.
Anyway, I have my own goals. Here they are:
http://www.summitpost.org/scott-s-wish-list/335481
Is it the same for anyone else? No, it isn’t, nor should it be.
Also, accomplishments are so often dependent on circumstances, so it’s hard to define when something is a mountaineering accomplishment.
I could use my recent trip as an example. I and two other climbers just got back from Peru. We either climbed or attempted and got high on El Misti (5822 meters/19,101 feet), Pichu Pichu (5665 meters/18586 feet), and Hualca Hualca (6025 meters/19767 feet).
Are those mountains real mountaineering accomplishments and especially if we didn’t reach the top of some of them? Heck, we even took some local guides. Shameful, I know.
Maybe some will thumb their nose at what we did and the peaks we climbed. Ah, but there were some special circumstances. I have climbed hundreds of mountains much more difficult than the above and without guides, but this time my two climbing partners were a nine year old girl and an 11 year old boy. To me that was a game changer concerning the decision of whether or not to take a local guide. I would think myself a fool if I went up there for that long and that high with only me and the children. I think getting up to 5850 meters/19,200 feet on Hualca Hualca was quite an accomplishment, especially considering the weather and conditions that we had. It was certainly an accomplishment for them. Here is the trip report:
http://www.summitpost.org/adventures-in-peru-the-sequel/894764
Does anyone here think I should not have gone with a guide if taking a nine and 11 year old to that high of mountains, with no other adult other than myself?
So no, I won’t define mountaineering accomplishment, because no one should care about my definition anyway, other than mountaineering is the act of climbing mountains. ;)
Don’t like the crowds on Everest? No problem, climb something else (or on a different route or season). The DC on Rainier is too easy and has too many guided climbers? No problem, climb the Liberty Ridge. Still too crowded? Climb it in March.
There are hundreds of thousands of mountains (and literally millions of routes) in the world. Some are high while some are low, some are easy and some are hard, some are crowded and some still haven’t seen a climber’s boot.
There’s plenty to choose from, so go out there and climb. As long as they are being respectful of life and leaving the mountains clean, don’t worry so much about what everyone else is doing.
In the end, the only purposes (in my eyes) for mountaineering is to challenge one’s self, to have a good time, create memories, and to keep in shape. Of course as I have said many times, you have to be respectful of others and leave the mountains clean.
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The guy above
climber
Across the pond
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May 29, 2014 - 10:33am PT
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The guy's rule of thumb to differentiate "real" climbers and mountaineers.
Mountaineers climb mountains, climbers climb routes, punters pay to be taken up mountains.
So:
"I want to climb Denali" (Any route, any means, it doesn't matter. They just want the tick. Will pay somebody to do the work for them) = Punter
"I want to climb Denali" (Any route, it doesn't matter. They just want the tick. They'll do the work themselves) = Mountaineer
"I want to climb the Cassin Ridge" (Self supported and on their steam)= Climber
"I want to climb the Cassin Ridge" (Any means, it doesn't matter. They just want the tick. Will pay somebody to do the work for them)= Punter pretending to be a climber
Anyone trying to sell "their story" for life coaching/motivational talks is immediately relegated to 'Punter', even if they soloed the Slovak direct in 5 hours on their budgy smugglers, in winter.
It IS the law
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Fall Guy
Mountain climber
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May 29, 2014 - 03:03pm PT
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The guy above said
Anyone trying to sell "their story" for life coaching/motivational talks is immediately relegated to 'Punter', even if they soloed the Slovak direct in 5 hours on their budgy smugglers, in winter.
Conrad Anchor may be surprised to learn that he has been relegated to the rank of punter.
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The guy above
climber
Across the pond
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May 29, 2014 - 03:11pm PT
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Conrad Anchor
Who? This guy?
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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May 29, 2014 - 03:55pm PT
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^^^ Lol!!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 1, 2014 - 01:25pm PT
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And I'm back with the story that never seems to end.
Wang Jing signed a statement for the Nepalese government that she never took a helicopter to camp 2. However, the helicopter pilot and her Sherpas are saying otherwise.
The Ministry of Tourism is now angry again, and has started an investigation. She of course is off to Mt. McKinley.
So many interesting politics at work, mostly at cross purposes.
RAJAN POKHREL
KATHMANDU: The government today initiated investigation into legendary mountaineer Wang Jing’s claim of crossing the Icefall route on foot on her way to scale Mt Everest from the Nepal side.
The Ministry of Tourism and Civil Aviation is collecting details of her summit after Wang, 41, claimed in writing that she never used a helicopter to reach Camp 2, contradicting the claims of her guide and chopper pilot who accompanied her from the Base Camp, Joint Secretary at the Ministry Madhu Sudan Burlakoti told THT.
Mountaineers and operators have criticised Wang for using chopper to bypass the most difficult route that was struck by an avalanche on April 18. Except for an emergency rescue and permitted flights to carry load, choppers are not allowed above the Base Camp.
According to Wang’s application stating her itinerary from May 9 to 23, she used the chopper only to airlift logistics, equipments and two sherpas (a porter and a guide) to Camp 2, Burlakoti said. “We are seeking detailed report from the Civil Aviation Authority of Nepal and helicopter companies about the flights made in the Everest region,” he added.
Earlier in a post-summit interview with THT, Wang had refused to provide details of chopper use, claiming she had crossed the dangerous Icefall route several times. But Da Gelge Sherpa told this daily in Namche Bazaar that he had flown with Wang to Camp 2 from the Base Camp on May 10.
Fishtail Air’s Captain Maurizio Folini also confirmed that he had piloted a four-seater Bell 206B III Jet Ranger helicopter to carry Wang from the Base Camp to Camp 2 on May 10. Folini had told Montagna, an Italian TV, on May 15 that he conducted flight to carry Wang to Camp 2. Folini said he had advised her to avoid the use of chopper in the name of climbing.
Wang, who scaled Mt Everest at around 6:20 pm on Friday, also flew back to the Base camp from Camp 2 on Sunday morning on the Bell chopper, Folini, who was her pilot on the return flight also, told THT.
Jing will visit Nepal on June 19 to collect her certificate.
 See more at: http://www.thehimalayantimes.com/fullNews.php?headline=Wang+claims+she+cleared+Icefall+route+on+foot%3B+govt+begins+probe&NewsID=416270#sthash.IPfT7Zvz.dpuf//
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2014 - 03:44pm PT
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Thanks Scott, I was just getting ready to post that. Russell Brice is so frank with his criticisms of the Tourism Ministry, I have the impression he doesn't plan to climb on the southside next year.
Then again, other civil servants in the Ministry have been on strike against the under secretary, so maybe Russell is thowing in his hat with them, thinking they're going to win?
Here's a short summary of all five of his articles for those who don't want to read the details.
http://www.explorersweb.com/offsite/?source=http%3A%2F%2Fblogs.dw.de%2Fadventuresports%2Frussell-brice-points-the-finger%2F&lang=en
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