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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 18, 2014 - 05:15pm PT
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Most of the negative comments against Beyer come from people who cannot possibly understand him or what he does because they have never climbed a significant amount truly hard aid, or done big wall first ascents, or known him personally. Or the negative comments are based on politics.
Not me.
Not me.
Not me.
And not me.
And finally he is calling me a war criminal. That is a bit more than mere politics.
And John Kelly, if you aren't hiding behind an avatar what have you done?
At least I've done it and haven't ruled out further solo walls when my epichondrial tendonitis heals. (From virgin rock last month)
And nice job quoting out of context. I didn't consider them pedestrian but was snarking a d#@&%e.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 18, 2014 - 05:17pm PT
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John Kelly has done lots of good climbs - just check his trip reports.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 18, 2014 - 05:18pm PT
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Well thats encouraging. Many solo virgin walls?
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Nov 18, 2014 - 05:27pm PT
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Yeah a few. Plenty of solo routes. Exclusively alpine routes for the last dozen or so years. Plenty of virgin summits.
Guess this thread is gonna turn into another beat on everyone
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 18, 2014 - 05:29pm PT
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Anybody call you a war criminal lately?
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timy
Sport climber
Durango
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Nov 18, 2014 - 05:45pm PT
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I remember back in the early/mid 90's, I was in the process of updating the guidebook for the Durango area. Jim had been quite active here during that time and he gave me a list of FA's he had done on the scrappy cliffs around town. Also there was a note as to what was acceptable as far as bolts and ground-up vs. rap bolting. I found it to be offensively narcissistic.
He seemed a nice enough guy in my few brief encounters with him. I remember him asking about a certain bolted route, which was bolted by Kurt Smith, who didn't stay around long enough to redpoint. Not long after that, the hangers were flattened.
He doesn't repeat routes or climb the same thing twice, ever. It seemed like he was doing routes (always ground-up) claiming ground to prevent anyone from rap bolting. There are choss routes EVerywhere, with mank and tat hanging in the most queer places around here. It was indeed politically motivated, no doubt.
It's all fine to be a fringe dweller (one of his route names) and climb on your own terms, but to expect respect from anyone, is again the height of narcisism. If we find any of this ground to be decent freeclimbing, we just remove the boobie trap mankies and bolt over it.
Anyway, aid climbing 40 foot routes and calling them free climbs doesn't get a guy into the guidebook. All of it seemed quite dubious and contrived.
Interesting thread!
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Nov 18, 2014 - 06:13pm PT
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Tim I was in Durango during the same period and that's not what I saw...
The idea that one guy climbing, usually alone, with a hand drill can outpace a heard of power drilling sport climbers is absurd.
Areas like the Lake Wall, mostly Beyer routes, instantly became popular. Loiter Land, while less popular, is another example...
BTW- The best stone near Durango is the granite north of Bakers Bridge... Rex Wolters, Jim Beyer, and I put in many, many high quality lines up there. All ground up, hand drilled, some easy, some hard...
Durango was a strange place in those times. Nearly everybody would bitch anytime a new route went in. Usually the bitch was "there's not enough pro". Climbing in Durango was like being in a popularity contest. If someone deemed you uncool well that meant your routes sucked too...
Your guide reflects that as well. You didn't bother to contact the people who had put up 3/4's of the new routes since the old guide came out. None of us were cool enough for your book. But we didn't care... We were busy
"We just remove the boobie trap mankies and bolt over it". That's obviously true. Many routes in that area were retrobolted, renamed, and credited to the retrobolters as FA's.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Nov 18, 2014 - 06:47pm PT
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But a big problem with batholes is there is nothing there to begin with and it was forced to create a new variation.
When there's nothing there "A line of least resistance" then you force it with with various tools to give yourself the illusion it's there ......
Exactly. And to follow that logic, Batholes are equal to chipping.
Both are permanent modifications to the rock to allow artificial passage.
Why are batholes acceptable but chipping isn't????
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Nov 18, 2014 - 07:00pm PT
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How is a bat hook hole better then a rivet or bolt? There's a hole either way
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 18, 2014 - 07:27pm PT
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How is a bat hook hole better then a rivet or bolt? There's a hole either way
Well, we certainly agree on that,(including drilled holes that one widgetsanything into) common ground.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Nov 18, 2014 - 10:18pm PT
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Eight or ten years ago, I was highly amused to hear of an escaped mental patient, hiding from the butterfly nets on the face of El Capitan, senselessly smashing WOEML belay bolt hangers flat because he thought they made his new route "too easy". Even better, the man in need of a straight-jacket was destroying anchors on Harding's classic, existing route because the bolts "ruined" the extreme rating (A7G RRRXXX, or whatever) of his new route.
Later, I learned that mental patient's name was Jim Beyer.
Maybe, Beyer will someday actually do an "A7" route.
To be a real A7 pitch, none of the aid or pro pieces and none of the belay pieces are allowed to hold even body weight. Even a group of belay pieces, equalized, are not allowed to hold body weight. And the pitch must begin off a very narrow ledge, or foothold. And the pitch can't be the first one of the route, but must be high off the deck.
As soon as the climber steps off the foothold to weight his first aid placement of the A7 pitch, it pulls, the belay fails, he falls and he dies.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Nov 19, 2014 - 12:30am PT
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Cummins, why should people believe Jensen & Smith version? I don't know if A6 exists or not (I guess the consensus is it ain't), but hidden drilled holes under cement to make a SA impossible? And the SA team are so clever that they find it out? A huge cam crack hidden under tones of mud that turn A4 into A1? Beyer is so intelligent to know that the rain will hide than crack? Really?
And talking about "hero worship", Jensen writes: "Mark and I had decided before making our journey that we were committed to doing the route, no matter how hard it might be. We had talked at great length about possible death-anchor configurations and how we might improve our chance--without drilling. We had decided that if we had to risk death-anchors to do the route, we would take whatever risks were required. We wanted to see what A6 was really like. We were honestly willing to die to find out." Without drilling? he means that usually he drills during SA? WTF? Since "Saving Private Ryan" that I didn't see so brave man (that's why they are known as "Balls of Steel"). And it's very ironic that after being 39 days on a route in el Cap claiming it's A5, Ammon downrates it to A3+. A route plenty of bathooks by the way (about 140 I guess)...
The thing on Beyer is very simple I guess. Why don't people go to repeat Martyr's brigade or that new routes and explain it here or in a magazine?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 19, 2014 - 02:34am PT
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why should people believe Jensen & Smith version?[Intifada second ascent trip report] I believe Richard's statements about what they did on their climb, what they saw, and that the photos they present are honest and real.
I also believe their assessment of the grade (of the climb as they found it).
As to whether I believe their judgement on what Beyer's intentions were?
That is a subjective decision that could go either way.
It would be hard to provide conclusive evidence for that.
As for whether it was "A6" the way Beyer chose to do it?
I don't know.
But they showed it didn't need to be A6, and they didn't have to drill to make that happen.
You are asking a lot of questions, like you have in the past.
Those questions were all answered in the other threads as I recall,
and then you would just ask them again.
So you are back.
If you really want answers, read the previous thread.
If you don't believe the answers provided there, I can't help you.
I'm happy to discuss other stuff with you, but you seem intent on proving
that Richard was lying and the burden of proof to do that takes a lot more
than just asking the same questions repeatedly.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Nov 19, 2014 - 04:31am PT
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I'm not asking a lot of questions, just being sarcastic. The answers are really clear.
The thing, indeed, which right, ain't new, is that I do not understand why Jensen/Smith, on one hand, recive so much credibility and on the other, some people are always suspected. That's double funny when years later Jensen acts like a judge and accuses people of doing what he did 140 times in the past. I'll take every single chance to remember it each time I can...
And about Beyer, I do insist: the routes are there waiting for a SA that no one seems to face even if they are in the beloved Yosemite.
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RP3
Big Wall climber
Twain Harte
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Nov 19, 2014 - 06:35am PT
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I believe his Yosemite routes await SAs because 1) they have really hard ratings and not many people who climb that hard and 2) Beyer has done some pretty lame things on his other routes that make an SA highly undesirable. A few examples are booby trapping routes with filed-down rivets that will pull under bodyweight and holes made for progress that are subsequently patched and camouflaged. I don't know if his new routes have these sort of shenanigans on them but they have been found on past routes of his.
Beyer's worshipers keep saying that in the mountains and you can do what you want. I disagree. You cannot manufacture a route with the idea of intentionally creating a artificial danger for the subsequent ascentionists. This shows a basic lack of respect for other human beings and for the rock.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 19, 2014 - 07:03am PT
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There is clearly a difference between one's climbing ability and character. You can celebrate one and not the other
If, however, a defect in character results in a booby trapped route you have a situation i don't think i have ever seen before in my 50 years of climbing.
Is there real evidence of booby trapped climbs or is it just hearsay?
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Nov 19, 2014 - 08:35am PT
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Yeah where's the "booby trap evidence"? This forum get more lame everyday. Lots of bitchin and no action. Someone go repeat the routes in question. Some of the newer ones....
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Nov 19, 2014 - 09:04am PT
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I agree John Kelley!
Since RP3 is a scientist, it's odd that he doesn't give the name of the sources as people with scientific formation usually do. However, I guess maybe "holes made for progress that are subsequently patched and camouflaged" comes from Jensen & Smith SA of Intifada (you can read it in the link that Cummins send yesterday if you can swallow the hole Jensen's verbal diarrhoea always saturated of suspicion towards Beyer from the very beginning). I do think that's not true, but it's my opinion. But since Jensen sees "eurobashies" instead of leadheds and "wood wedges" which, according to him, require to bring a saw on the wall to cut'em insitu, much is revealed...
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Nov 19, 2014 - 09:10am PT
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Sounds like Johkelly and Rivet hanger just made plans to go repeat Beyer's brand new route.
Cool, guys. Thanks. So many times no-one actually steps up to act when it's said that "…someone should repeat…." Will you report back here once you're done please?
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Nov 19, 2014 - 09:15am PT
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How is a bat hook hole better then a rivet or bolt? There's a hole either way
BITD of true dirtbags, it actually made perfect sense in some cases. Yes, it's still a hole, but many guys just couldn't afford large quantities of bolts and hangers. Rivets, I don't know. Never bought any myself.
Yeah definitely John. Do a good trip report!
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