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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 17, 2013 - 12:29pm PT
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Ron I don't want to take your guns away. There is no overreaching conspiracy to take your guns away. Get over it.
Why do you need to dismiss 27 dead children with the asinine rejoinder of "Well what about all the nightly killings of gang bangers in Oakland?" "Why don't those get the media frenzy?" "Yada yada yargle blargle". Why the f*#k can't you gun huggers acknowledge there IS a problem and work to address solutions rather than your regular mindless defense of the indefensible?
It is the gun huggers and gun nutters that create this false fear about the Gubmint commin ta take mah guns. No one else is holding all gun owners responsible or to blame for crazed school shootings. If you feel blame you are blaming your self.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Dec 17, 2013 - 12:48pm PT
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Who says they want to take your guns away?
I want it to be illegal for you to sell a gun to anyone until you know that the buyer is not prohibited from owning one. Don't keep saying this is already the law, because in most states, it's not.
If you are a licensed gun dealer, I want you to face realistic penalties if you "lost" the paperwork for a gun that was used to shoot a cop, or kid or even a gang-banger.
If you have a gun stolen, I want you to have to report it to the police. If you keep having guns stolen, I want the police to be able to ask why.
If you want to own a gun that has no legitimate self-defense, home defense, or hunting purpose, I want you to exercise your freedom to join any one of the several designated organizations created "to ensure the security of a free state".
If you want to carry a loaded weapon in a public place, I want you to attend a safety course, show proficiency with that weapon and knowledge of the laws associated with discharging it in any place that I, or my kids might be.
After Newtown,I have to go through more security checks each day to pick up my kids from school than a mentally ill felon has to go through to buy a gun online or at a gun show, does that sound right to you?
TE
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 17, 2013 - 12:49pm PT
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While there is no conspiracy to take away all the guns there is the threat. After all, whenever the anti gun side mentions Australia as an example, that's basically what is being talked about although there are still firearms available to Australians. But let's face it, there is NO REAL THREAT of someone coming to get your guns. The most extreme end of reality is that they may become harder to get. That is what scares gun manufacturers most and they have a huge lobby on their side.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Dec 17, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
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For clarity sake- I dont much care for Nugent. I also think quite a bit of NRA proposals are flawed. And I dont think universal background checks would seriously restrict anyones rights, nor would they solve gun crime. Neither would bans and confiscations.
People seem just as hell-bent on lumping all firearms owners together as they are for lumping all the anti-gunners together. What a f*#king waste of time.
If we have to play the political polarization game, then in general Id like to choose the side that restricts my rights the least. It seems an unfortunate choice between dumb and dumber, though here, as elsewhere, the dumber choice in my opinion is to forfeit rights that will likely never be reinstated. There are better ways to do things, except they would require a multi-level approach, actual thought, and a bit of public patience. Too bad that last word is disappearing.
Nowadays people want immediate effective solutions to whatever ails them. And the attitude is "f*#k everyone else".
So, you want to ban things? To that, I say f*#k you. Ban the assault weapons- great. Just a matter of time until someone takes a shotgun to school and...
oops- we better ban those!
Or starts sniping peeps with an antique single shot one at a time at random on the east coast...
oops- that was an assault rifle. Better ban those!
Bans are bullsh#t, because as people work their way down the list of legally posessed weapons, so will the ban list. Only you will have forgotten to address the underlying issues that prompted the violence in the first place.
And you will continue to scream "WHY?!" and call for yet further restrictions.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 17, 2013 - 12:59pm PT
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Legal gun owners are JUST THAT and NOT part of any problem. The kid in Arapahoe was a Legal gun owner.
Adama Lanza was a legal gun owner.
James Holmes was a legal gun owner.
and none of them were under 18
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Dec 17, 2013 - 01:38pm PT
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so Dave, you,re saying it wouldnt work that way... do tell.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Dec 17, 2013 - 01:43pm PT
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"Kinda like the training a parent does with their kids in DRIVING A CAR. "
“False equivalence is a logical fallacy which describes a situation where there is a logical and apparent equivalence, but when in fact there is none.”
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Dec 17, 2013 - 01:46pm PT
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What are other kinds of false equivalencies that gun owners use?
The variations are endless, but here are some common ones:
-Guns and alcohol are equivalent, because they both __
-Guns and cars are equivalent, because they both __
-Guns and knives are equivalent, because they both __
-Guns and bleach are equivalent, because they both __
-Guns and fists are equivalent, because they both __
-Gun and stamp collecting are equivalent, because they are both _
-Guns and _ are equivalent, because they both ___
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Dec 17, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
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Guns and CELL PHONES are equivalent, because they both KILL KIDS.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Dec 17, 2013 - 01:52pm PT
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Oh right, those things are not constitutionally protected.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 17, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
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ok, so are we all willing to pay an extra say $500 a year each to pay for many more armed and highly trained police/security offices guarding our schools?
how about everyone, would you pay?
I would
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 17, 2013 - 02:05pm PT
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It can be done for no extra spending, Norton, if we managed our resources wisely. You can keep your $500.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Dec 17, 2013 - 02:07pm PT
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Ron, your incredulousness that I'm not in agreement with you is only exceeded by my utter amazement that you are unable to debate with any sense of logic or fact.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Dec 17, 2013 - 02:08pm PT
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Wouldnt that be better spent on mental health, counseling, and anti-bullying measures?
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Dec 17, 2013 - 02:23pm PT
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Guns and CLIMBING are equivalent, because they both KILL KIDS.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 17, 2013 - 02:23pm PT
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it seems to me that this school shooting stuff is not about proper gun training and safety
those kids killing other kids knew who to handle their guns just fine
we already have laws prohibiting mentally ill people from buying new guns
of course, they can buy used guns all day and night without background checks
so, the answer has to be many more armed and trained school guards, right?
nobody but me willing to pay some more in taxes to pay for those extra guys?
come on.....
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 17, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
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You don't have to pay extra taxes, Norton.
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JonA
Trad climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Dec 17, 2013 - 02:42pm PT
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This IS a "new age" problem, brought to you by new aged, broken, shattered familys where every parent works. Do that simple math..
Agreed. Typically when one looks at data they are first and foremost looking for correlations. Our number of defective widgets has skyrocketed since the introduction of machine x, therefore machine x is most likely the cause of the defective widgets.
School shootings have increased since the late 90's. Has gun ownership demographics changed? No. Has there been a decrease in gun safety awareness? No. Do kids today spend hours playing incredibly violent video games? Yes. Has violence in movies and TV increased in the last 20 years? Yes.
Probably more relevant, are kids today taught that life is unfair? That everyone at some point in their life is bullied? Maybe this world we have created in which every child gets a gold medal and corporal punishment will land a parent in jail is incredibly toxic for our children.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 17, 2013 - 02:50pm PT
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I hear Blackwater is looking for work. Probably would give a deep discount.
I am not sure it makes sense to protect every school from a few mentally disturbed people with guns, but I am lucky enough not have lost any kids to such a horrible event.
Focusing on keeping guns out of the hands of people with questionable mental health seems like a better way to go. Rather than buying more guns we should spend a few billion trying to figure out why some people in this society are lashing out at perfect strangers becuase they are unhappy with their own lives.
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