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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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The problem with the conspiracists, Werner, is Occam's Razor.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Please tell us what you mean. How one applies the Razor to this matter depends on your view of the matter. Oh, Occam's Razor, Occam's Razor......run, it's Occam's Razor!!!
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WBraun
climber
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I'm well aware of all the problems with this subject matter Gary.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2013 - 07:43pm PT
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"There happen to be a lot of people around who spend an hour on the Internet and think they know a lot physics, but it doesn’t work like that."
"You don’t have to be a physicist to understand it. You just have to think for a minute.”
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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How one applies the Razor to this matter depends on your view of the matter
How do you mean?
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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You brought it up Gary so why can't you play along and tell us what you meant? Let's see you apply it. Let's see you take it beyond the stage of cliché. You guys throw Occam's Razor around so much I think it's getting a bit dull.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Well, the simplest theory probably would not include a massive conspiracy in the upper reaches of the federal government.
BTW, the Razor is not a cliche, but a principle of logic.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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I'm well aware of all the problems with this subject matter Gary.
Absolutely hysterical.
Curt
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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My point was that it was becoming a cliché here to keep throwing out Occam's Razor without applying it. I told you to take it beyond that cliché level. I did not say Occam's Razor is itself a cliché.
What's the difference between a government conspiracy and a conspiracy of foreigners? I don't claim there is a government conspiracy - but there may be one. I only claim the buildings were brought down in demolition fashion based on evidence. Who did it is the next stage of the investigation.
I don't disagree that there were planes involved, but I don't think they are the sole reasons the buildings came down. There was not enough steel weakened in any of the buildings to allow absolute total collapse, especially at the speeds/rate they came down. One of the buildings was not even hit by a plane. For that tall and lean 47 story building to collapse to 4 stories tall, at demolition speed, basically into it's own footprint, I think we need to use Occam's Razor to say it was blown up.
For something so damned obvious, the Razor slices everything else away and says it is so, and then it looks for the why, the who, and the how. The argument does not start with talking about a conspiracy.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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McHale, I think the difference in the conspiracies is that the government conspiracy seems more involved. Demolition plans have to be made, the explosives have to be placed clandestinely and then co-ordinated with the plane hijackings, and kept secret not only during execution, but long after.
Whereas the hijackers plan works because it is open and simple.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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I don't think Occam is going to let you say the Government blew the buildings up. That is an assumption that is not supported. The buildings were blown up but nobody knows by who exactly.
The government was 'told' Bin Ladan was going to perform some kind of mayhem. They were apparently not told that there would be planes involved and apparently they were not told there would be explosives. Occam's Razor would say that correlation here would mean the same people were involved.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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One of the buildings was not even hit by a plane
Do ya know what it was hit by, McHale?
basically into it's own footprint
Yep, and into the footprint of a couple nearby buildings.
Did ya think it had to tip over, in order to not be suspicious?
Which direction does gravity work?
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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I've seen the debunking videos that try to show it did not come down into it's own footprint but it was not convincing. It was near perfect. I don't think anything that tall had ever been brought down with explosives, so they didn't do a bad job considering.
If you are saying it was hit by the towers and so badly damaged that it collapsed, it is highly unlikely it would do so as perfectly as it did.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Wow, McHale was not convinced. Shocking surprise.
So they attempted something that had not been done before.
Occams razor strikes again.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Anybody can do a search and see what I mean.
There's the Razor again. What do you mean exactly? You know, there's bound to be a limit to this stupid Razor Stuff. I don't think that tool was meant to lower debates to the level of idiocy.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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I have searched, long ago.
They attempted something that had not been done before and will try it 3 times. Sounds risky and complicated.
Why not just run planes into the towers and be done?
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Because the planes themselves could not make the buildings collapse. The explosives are to fool you into thinking the planes did it all alone. I think they succeeded in fooling you.
They attempted something that had not been done before and will try it 3 times. Sounds risky and complicated.
It had to be risky and complicated. You see, pulling out your Razor constantly as a form of argument just shows how dimwitted you are.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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But 500 people would die, and 3 smoking icons would be left behind.
I wanna hear you say again, that 500 deaths would not have allowed Bush to push for his wars.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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You don't know it would have been enough to kill 500. Bush could have pushed but it may not have been enough, at least to go to war so quickly.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Really, how many were on board the planes?
How many were killed at the pentagon, no collapse.
The total is about 370. Now add the deaths at the towers pre collapse.
If they simply hijacked the planes and dove them into the ground would have done the job.
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