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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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MEN, BURT BRONSON HERE. STAY AWAY FROM PROCESSED SOY OR this is what will happen.
;>(
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tripmind
Boulder climber
San Diego
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Sep 20, 2015 - 04:40am PT
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Its apples and oranges. Even a modern cornfield still requires a high amount of diesel and other sources of dirty fuel to produce and process large amounts of vegetables.
"Inefficiency" is about as far as one can go to grasp for straw in this argument. Overpopulation and famine is a government problem, not a farming problem.
If we did actually save some insignificant fraction of energy by outlawing all cattle ranching, it would not feed the hungry, or famined people in africa. It would simply spark the rapid growth of these same problems and put the world at even greater peril.
I love meat for the record. I think factory farming of any sort, including beef, poultry, or salmon is trash and produces low quality food. I am very willing to pay a premium for good meat, or otherwise walk out into some backcountry and harvest it myself, and gut it, and skin it. I've had venison that an inlaw shot and killed legally. It was outstanding.
I would jump at the chance for regulation - to allow the tuna to grow bigger, or even to outlaw usage of steroids and antibiotics in factory farms, because its often quite difficult to tell what you're buying at a supermarket. Even buying salmon from a fish farm can reveal some pretty disgusting qualities of that meat, its astounding that USFDA allows some of this sh#t to be trucked across the Canadian border.
But the economy is might, and might makes right apparently. F*#k the consumer says the US government.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 20, 2015 - 05:00am PT
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People in the US would eat less meat if the veggies were better. I'm in Georgia in the Caucasus Mts. and the tomatoes, beets and other veggies are to die for. Fruit is great too.
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Degaine
climber
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Sep 20, 2015 - 09:15am PT
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Jeleazarian wrote:
I'm afraid this topic, as in much of the reactionary left's world, represents a gigantic ego trip of people who think they know what other people really want, and resent the fact that the industrial revolution and markets allow those ignorant masses to self-select what their deluded minds think they want, rather than what the enlightened think they should want.
Bold by me.
Why do you always position issues as right vs. left?
99% of animal products Americans consume comes from factory farms, and the companies that own factory farms in the USA and other countries have done a great job in decreasing if not eliminating regulations. No one would ever think of human waste not being treated or eliminating all regulations regarding the treatment of human waste, yet that's the case with factory farms: poultry or pig, take your pick. It's a major environmental and health problem.
But let's just say that you don't give a sh#t (pun intended), what about the sanctity of life? If we split the world as you appear to view it, right vs left, then you should be up in arms at the treatment of animals (namely poultry, pigs, and cattle, the staple meats in this country, but you could add fish as well) on factory farms and slaughter houses.
But let's just say again that you couldn't give a rat's ass (or rather pig's ass, yes, pun intended) about how awful animals are treated (whether chicken, turkey, pig, or steer, many of these animals are feathered/skinned/bled out while conscious, an industry average of something on the order of 5% of animals, and when we slaughter something in the order of 9 billion chickens* a year that's a lot of suffering animals) but are concerned about have clean, safe food. Out of luck there as well. Ever wonder why your told to make sure that your chicken is fully cooked? It's there's a hell of a lot of fecal matter on it when you buy it.
But one last time, let's just perhaps you're not too worried about E.Coli or the occasional bout of diarrhea. Well, the reason why antibiotics are less and less effective is not because of overuse in humans but because of overuse in animal agriculture. We humans only use antibiotics when we're actually sick - and this used to be the case, too, when raising animals 40 to 50 years ago - but now it is an integral part of poultry and pig feed. That is one dangerous proposition (in other words, swine and bird flu).
Kind of silly, in my opinion, to simply dismiss this as a right vs left issue, don't you think? With regard to the market, choice in economic theory is based on the notion that the consumer is fully informed, and in the case of Big Ag/Factory farms, the industry does its best to ensure that as little information as possible is out there about their practices and product.
*Edited to fix my originally very low original number.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Sep 20, 2015 - 10:50am PT
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People in the US would eat less meat if the veggies were better. I'm in Georgia in the Caucasus Mts. and the tomatoes, beets and other veggies are to die for. Fruit is great too.
This Donini guy is always here there and everywhere. Georgia? That place near Russia? I think "Jim Donini" is an alias and cover for 007!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 21, 2015 - 05:50am PT
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Cosmic....Mark. KGB eh....well I'd did do Kazbek which required crossing over into Russia for a kilometer or two on the descent. Just flew into Istanbul to meet Angela for a couple of weeks of sightseeing and some exellent limestone.
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ECF
Big Wall climber
Colona, CO
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Sep 21, 2015 - 06:11am PT
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Your quoted statistic are totally made up.
I went to college for natural resources management and took courses in range management.
The actual numbers are much higher.
You weakened you own arguement by not doing proper research.
Hmm, the no meat crowd contains a lot of "no guns" type people, and the inverse is also true.
Push comes to shove, how do you see that panning out?
You love generalities, here's one for ya...
Vegans are weak arrogant d#@&%ebahgs.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 21, 2015 - 06:22am PT
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I love meat and fish even more and I'm for sane gun control laws for America so we can ask for entry into the civilized world.
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Degaine
climber
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Sep 21, 2015 - 08:07am PT
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ECF wrote:
Your quoted statistic are totally made up.
I went to college for natural resources management and took courses in range management.
The actual numbers are much higher.
You weakened you own arguement by not doing proper research.
Thanks for pointing out the error in the number of chickens slaughtered that I posted. Not trying to make up figures, just under-remembered from the stats that I had read.
I've done enough research not sure how my argument is weakened.
ECF wrote:
Hmm, the no meat crowd contains a lot of "no guns" type people, and the inverse is also true.
Push comes to shove, how do you see that panning out?
I'm not sure how you confuse the desire for humane treatment of farm animals, the desire for the proper management of resources, and the desire for Big Ag to actual pay the real cost of meat production (instead of passing along as much of the costs as possible on to someone else) with the “no meat”.
But maybe your post wasn’t directed at me?
Cheers.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Sep 21, 2015 - 10:55am PT
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Meat-free meat might be the solution.
Bill Gates is putting a lot of money in this field.
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Urizen
Ice climber
Berkeley, CA
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Sep 21, 2015 - 10:56am PT
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Donini,
There's some good wine to be found in Georgia, too, now that they've figured out how to make it dry instead of sweet.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Sep 21, 2015 - 12:23pm PT
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Meat-free meat might be the solution.
Bill Gates is putting a lot of money in this field.
LET THEM EAT SILICON!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 21, 2015 - 12:34pm PT
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Jeleazarian wrote:
I'm afraid this topic, as in much of the reactionary left's world, represents a gigantic ego trip of people who think they know what other people really want, and resent the fact that the industrial revolution and markets allow those ignorant masses to self-select what their deluded minds think they want, rather than what the enlightened think they should want.
Degaine responded (in part):
. . . . Kind of silly, in my opinion, to simply dismiss this as a right vs left issue, don't you think? With regard to the market, choice in economic theory is based on the notion that the consumer is fully informed, and in the case of Big Ag/Factory farms, the industry does its best to ensure that as little information as possible is out there about their practices and product.
Degaine, your words prove my contention.
John
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Sep 21, 2015 - 01:32pm PT
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Actually John, with all due respect, it doesn't prove your contention. These are just two divergent positions given what you have presented. To prove your contention you need to provide facts that support your position. Of course, I have not read most of this thread and I may have missed something.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 21, 2015 - 01:51pm PT
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I stand corrected. To me, the comment demonstrated a viewpoint that allocating goods via the market was bad because the consumers were too stupid to know what they were getting, in contrast to the knowledgeable elite, who would like to return to pre-industrial-revolution economics, where one's all-knowing liege allocated everything for the greater good.
John
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Sep 21, 2015 - 02:52pm PT
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To me, the comment demonstrated a viewpoint that allocating goods via the market was bad because the consumers were too stupid to know what they were getting, in contrast to the knowledgeable elite, who would like to return to pre-industrial-revolution economics, where one's all-knowing liege allocated everything for the greater good.
Yikes, John!!!!! That would be a scary thought indeed, on many differet levels. Uh, yea...I did not get that out of Degaine's statement. Granted, his earlier argument was about meat (well, it is the topic of discussion), but the more general statement is about supplying information to the potential consumers. Not that they are too stupid to know, but that they are purposefuly not informed by producers. Even "Product can contain Isopropylamine salt of glyphosate" probably does not sound too appealing. Is the guy selling you that Honda Accord going to harp on the fact that they have had problems with the air bags?
As an example, non gmo labelling is generally important to me, mainly because they have not really established long term effects of "roundup" ingestion, and it persists in harvested roundup ready grains (wheat, barley, rice) and I don't feel like being a gunnea pig for Monsanto (the people who said PCB's were safe). I guess I am part of the "knowledgeable elite", but my experience in Haz Mat site study, RI/FS, and risk assessment means I have some understanding as to how fuzzy some of these numbers (like LD50's, ect) can be. I just don't want to eat the stuff. Luckly there are non-gmo labels to look for, but most people don't know about this and thus cannot make an informed decision for themselves. Maybe having to label everything as GMO is not the way to go about it, but there should be a clear-cut unambiguous alternative for those who want it. Information is what we are talking about. Access to information about the stuff that is going into our bodies. The general delivery system works fine.
A general statement which I will not back up now is that, our food system in the United States is one of the largest (if not the largest) contributors to the overloading of our health care system. Costs are going crazy. If that isn't of general concern to everyone, I don't know what is.
Chris
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 21, 2015 - 03:13pm PT
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The meat eaters create so much negative karmic reactions for their endless violence against nature.
Their stooopid industrialized slaughterhouses are the karmic cause of all their stooopid wars unbeknownst to them.
Then they spout endless stooopid hypocrisy about their reasons to kill and eat animals by industrialized slaughter,
Stooopid ignorant meat eaters .....
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