Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
|
|
|
Oct 22, 2013 - 02:06pm PT
|
Sterling ropes is owned by a conservo fanatic who publicly pushed voting for republican earth scorchers...Perfect sponsor for this guy...
Havn't bought their ropes for ages.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
|
Oct 22, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
|
I can respect that a company has enough fiber to stick with an "employee" thru a screw-up . He screwed up and was sorry he got caught.I have seen plenty of bad behavior by climbers and their ego's over the years that has not been "Caught". He is certainly less than perfect, may even be a horse's ass, but I can be too. Sterling will keep him on a short leash, but for now take the heat. Next week this will be out of the Supertopo "news cycle" and the crowd can get on to their next "project".
Very good summary. I have known some employers who would fire a long-time employee for a single mistake. I wouldn't care to do business with such an employer, because people who go through life terrified of making a mistake usually perform more poorly than those free enough to try to do better.
We have a problem, though, when we try to define "mistake." Some of the zealots (I was going to use the word "haters," but I think that's too loaded to be accurate. A lot of the reaction truly represents, in my opinion, genuine revulsion that anyone would even think that about cutting that tree) see this as something different from a "mistake." If I act unintentionally, most would see my action as a "mistake," but what if I act with "bad" intent? After all, the tree didn't "accidentally" get cut.
While I respect that opinion, my personal values favor mercy over harshness. That depends, of course, on the sincerity of repentance, but I cannot condemn Kinder's sponsors if they refuse to disengage from him immediately. Let the climber who is without sin cast the first stone.
I personally have a hard time getting on my high horse in this case, for at least the following reasons:
1. I once swung a mighty hammer. Pin scars on such classics as Serenity Crack and Swan Slab, and almost everything at the base of El Cap, to name just a few of the shorter routes I pounded, bear some of my handiwork;
2. I, and much of my generation, had no problems removing dirt and vegetation from cracks (ironically calling our efforts "gardening") to create a cliffscape suitable for our climbing "artistry;"
3. I remain complicit in a system and ethic that gives Yosemite climbers privileges denied to other Park users; and
4. I have no high horse -- because I'm too short to ride one.
;-)
John
|
|
PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
|
|
|
Oct 22, 2013 - 02:40pm PT
|
The outcome of this may be that you have to secure a permit to put a new drilled route or undrilled route (that would be harder to enforce). The route would be looked at pre construction, during construction and post construction. With easy availability of portable power drills and many more sport climbers it could be a good (necessary) thing. I recall going to Courtwright for the first time a few years ago and finding a 5.4ish face climb bolted every 10+ feet; it was stupid.
|
|
tinker b
climber
the commonwealth
|
|
|
Oct 22, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
|
After browsing through these comments, I think it's clear to anyone slightly discerning that most of the "outrage" over the loss of this tree mostly (not completely) stems from a deep, ugly jealousy of Joe's life and talent. Maybe there was a moment of shock about the tree, but it quickly became not about the tree ... not at all. So transparent it breaks my heart, actually. You people don't think he deserves the life he has very much earned for himself (he's not a trustfunder as someone mentioned, in fact he's one of the hardest working professional climbers out there) and you want to try to tear that away from him ... why? One can only guess that it stems from some deeper dissatisfaction or discontent with yourselves. I know it's a hard pill to swallow, but I swear that your lives really will be better if you stop posting hateful, jealous, insane, judgmental, and often completely misinformed comments on the Internet about good people in the climbing community.
that was f*#king hilarious. not jealous. just love trees, and don't have an ego so big that i would cut down a juniper for an fa. i have a pretty good time being a mediocre climber, for some of us it is not about being the best. maybe someday you will see it is not all about who climbs the hardest. i am sad that there are so many who have tunnel vision from magazines and the quest for sponcership.
and ethan pringle was there and should have some responsibility in this. when my friends are being as#@&%es i usually let them know, or i am an irresponsible friend. it shouldn't take an internet shitstorm for someone to realize cutting a juniper is wrong.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
|
Oct 22, 2013 - 03:15pm PT
|
I recall going to Courtwright for the first time a few years ago and finding a 5.4ish face climb bolted every 10+ feet; it was stupid.
I can think of several. On Trapper Dome, I didn't realize one of the routes was there until I walked past the second bolt on what I thought was the approach across a slab to the start of the "real" climbing.
The Courtright "beginners'" bolts, though, don't really bother me much, because they serve a useful purpose and didn't involve any more environmental alteration than the bolts. That route I walked past made a perfect first lead for my (then) very young daughters. For my youngest, it was the mental equivalent of Crest Jewel.
It bothers me a whole lot more, however, when I see single-pitch bolted routes close to existing, decently-protected climbs, that have probably been top-roped already. What's the point?
John
|
|
ddsstyle
Sport climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
|
|
|
Oct 22, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
|
I guess now it comes down to whether or not you care if this mans professional climbing career suffers serious damage. Some do care. Many others do not. My initial feelings were very hostile. I wrote emails to his sponsors expressing my opinion and posted negative things in the original thread. My hostility is still somewhat present, but I think the lumps have been dealt out people. Joe Kinder has now owned up to it (Regardless of what you think of his blog post, he owned up to it. He admitted to it. Maybe it was a self serving apology, but he stopped lying) and has been thoroughly embarrassed. Lets see what he does in the next six months.... On a side note, three of his sponsors wrote me a personal email back. Gregory, Sanuk, and E. Mtn Sports. They offered an apology and all three asked me what I thought of Joe Kinders apology. anyone else receive feedback for sponsors that they wrote? If so, what are your thoughts on the sponsors feedback? any sponsor besides Sterling put out a press release?
|
|
patrick compton
Trad climber
van
|
|
|
Oct 22, 2013 - 04:04pm PT
|
I don't like sponsored, professional climbers that climb grades I don't understand, so I don't like sponsors either. Any of them.
I climb in a hemp loincloth and feet dipped in molten tire rubber.
|
|
PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
|
|
|
Oct 22, 2013 - 04:04pm PT
|
EMS wrote me back and said they accept his apology. When I googled the EMS guy and JK there were numerous videos they had produced together. Sounds like they are friends and more than business partners.
After reading alot of the posts I think this is bigger than JK and that new route installs in sensitive areas can easily be destructive to the environment. When you add the lack of knowledge of the installer it is a guarenteed environmental hazard.
It reminds me of little kids building tree forts; it was really fun but we didn't know ( or think about it) that trees don't like nails.
|
|
KP Ariza
climber
SCC
|
|
|
Oct 22, 2013 - 04:34pm PT
|
Like I say either we get a legit excuse for the nuking or I put a topo and map to the crag here later today.
Hey bigshot, what about your "outing the crag later today" huh?
|
|
squishy
Mountain climber
|
|
|
Oct 22, 2013 - 04:46pm PT
|
It's a culture problem, there's no way it will change as long as there's money to be made and WE keep allowing it. The only way to change culture is to shock it, like this event has done, or let it evolve slowly. Sadly, the earth isn't going to give us a second or third chance as we learn, the second option is unacceptable. If Joe wants to do something good, he would drop all his sponsors himself, he would step down and admit he is a poor ambassador of the sport, he would prop someone else up as a better example and we will remember his positive contribution, if at least, as an example in what not to do.
He's producing and he can continue working in the background, but he should honorably give up that front-man status...
Like the soft iron and pitons of old, like the articles which changed the course of climbing history forever. I am reminded of Murdering the Impossible. Joe now has this opportunity to reiterate the lesson for a new generation of instant gratification junkies.
Have we already seen him squander the opportunity like a child? I doubt he even realizes his own potential, teachable moments like these don't come along too often. He should come put my ass in it's place and prove me wrong, but I don't think he has the head or pair to do it.
|
|
KP Ariza
climber
SCC
|
|
|
Oct 22, 2013 - 04:47pm PT
|
Riley,
Never met him, I'm just sick of the droning judgemental blather that windbags like you continually put forth, and I could'nt give a sh#t about your fuking credentials or earning power either. The fact that you would offer that information as some sort of leverage on this subject makes you look that much more pathetic. Give it a rest blowhard.
Don't condone him cutting down the either.
|
|
squishy
Mountain climber
|
|
|
Oct 22, 2013 - 04:49pm PT
|
all I can feel as a fellow climber is the shame of it.
|
|
squishy
Mountain climber
|
|
|
Oct 22, 2013 - 04:49pm PT
|
Never met him, just sick of the droning judgemental blather that windbags like you continually put forth. Give it a rest blowhard.
Hey now, there is important trolling going on here, clear aside..
|
|
Banks
Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
|
|
|
Oct 22, 2013 - 05:14pm PT
|
I received a response from the president of Sterling. They still don't get it.
"Sterling does not condone this behavior. But keep in mind, that in many areas around the world,people cut down old growth Junipers to build houses and even to fuel fires. We need to keep this in perspective."
And this gem...
"He is not working to save his reputation, or his sponsorships(because he knows none of us have an ounce of tolerance for poor behavior), he is working to make this right because he loves climbing."
|
|
KP Ariza
climber
SCC
|
|
|
Oct 22, 2013 - 05:39pm PT
|
Yes, but at what point do you start to let things rest? Each point has been made hundreds of times over between this thread and the first one. The witch hunt is getting a bit extreme. What do you all propose as punishment for the Rim Fire starter? Life? Death?
|
|
squishy
Mountain climber
|
|
|
Oct 22, 2013 - 05:51pm PT
|
Yes, but at what point do you start to let things rest?
When those involved show integrity, when the community hears what it needs to hear. It's obvious that hasn't happened yet. All we have seen is a cover up, deleted threads, excuses, lies and veiled apologies. The relationship between the business of climbing and the sport of climbing is clashing. Who will win? Which side are you on?
I am voting with my wallet, that won't change. And I am using this keyboard to voice what I think is a fair assessment of the events. UNACCEPTABLE!!
|
|
cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
|
|
|
Oct 22, 2013 - 06:03pm PT
|
Joe Kindling
Missed that the first time, hahaha.
|
|
drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
|
|
|
Oct 22, 2013 - 06:03pm PT
|
|
|
KP Ariza
climber
SCC
|
|
|
Oct 22, 2013 - 06:15pm PT
|
There Squish, squash it.
|
|
Banks
Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
|
|
|
Oct 22, 2013 - 06:15pm PT
|
And a couple more gems from the president of Sterling.
"If Joe denied or lied about this, that is not the story I heard, but it doesn't mean he didn't. I don't know."
Well why don't you ask him?
And this...
"He is being held acoountable for this by all of his sponsors."
I asked how, awaiting a response.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!