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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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kind thoughts your way, 'weege.
take care of you.
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Lollie
Social climber
I'm Lolli.
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Sorry to hear that, Norwegian.
Don't despair. Black holes can spit up something good.
You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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I'm so sorry. That rudderless, drifting feeling....then a shoreline always seems to appear...
Susan
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Weege said: "i've got a cute cabin out back that is mine;
she the main house.
f*#k it, it's affordable and we share the rearing
responsibilities and hopefully don't have to
tangle our vines much.
i know it won't work, i've seen it attempted
around the community. ugly separation
and division of assets is really the ultimate
destination for us."
Perhaps. Perhaps knott. My aunt and uncle did this for over 30 - 40 years or so. He bought a small log cabin and hauled it up to the farm on the back of a flatbed truck. Put it on the other side of the garden. It was pretty rustic, and showers for him were few and far apart, he had to pump water at the old hand pump. Their front doors face each other so coming and going they were looking right at the others domicile.
They saw each other all the time (outside, like weeding the garden). Later, after things had emotionally calmed down, sometimes on a rare occasion she'd invite him over for dinner. She was the best cook in the valley, being Austrian and all, he was extra careful to not mess up the house (one of her big peeves -the other was his drinking which he stopped), and would take off his boots before entering. They never divorced. They never lived together again but they always went to family functions together. They had pretty happy lives it seemed. I guess it's all in how you define things......they didn't give a rats ass on social convention or what others thought about their strange setup.
Good luck man.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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For god's sake, Norwegian, what the hell do you think your drinking does to your beloved children? It will destroy parts of them. You will not be there for them when they need you. What would happen if something happened to your wife, your kids came running to you for help and you were drunk? What kind of impact would that have? Kids don't get over that kind of sh#t, it has an impact that can last years into adulthood.
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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WTF is truthful about the booze, man. Keep up the sobriety or at least moderate until your heart feels less pain. Booze delays and INTENSIFIES the bad feelings, for me at least.
And there will be other partners, female leaders, to keep the rope taught for you in the future buddy.
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Fletcher
Gym climber
A very quiet place
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Norwegian: You may not be husband and wife any longer. Your ex may be terror on earth. You may feel YOU are terror on earth. These are all big things to deal with, grieve, get help for, ignore, etc.
But one thing has not changed and perhaps will help you sort all of the other things that wear on you: Both you and your wife are still and will always be the parents of your kids. That will never change. You may have your differences, but please, for the sake of those girls, work hard to do your parenting together. I speak from experience. It's hard work, but really paid off for my daughter, former wife, and me.
Peace,
Eric
P.S. And a corollary: Try to be present for those girls, figuratively and physically. Not having a dad (or mom) is a huge burden for any kid. I also speak from experience here... my own father is still alive, but has not been present (his choice) for many years now.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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You can end a marriage, but if you have kids, the most potentially challenging part of marriage (i.e. raising children together) persists.
Weegie, when you think about getting drunk to avoid dealing with your problems, think about your high-school age daughters doing the same. If that doesn't give you some sort of motivation to be a role model, to think beyond your own pain, well, I don't know where it goes from there but nowhere good.
My mom was an alcoholic and multi-drug addict. Her wake-up call was me entering junior high years and briefly experimenting. I'm not sure how much her getting her sh!t together made a difference in me not getting sucked into that stuff, but I think it did make a big difference in my life. I thank her for that. Whatever screw-ups are in the past, there is always room for things to get better or worse, based on the choices you make every day. One day at a time.
If you make a mistake and fall down, get the feck back up and keep trying.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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For god's sake, Norwegian, what the hell do you think your drinking does to your beloved children? It will destroy parts of them. You will not be there for them when they need you. What would happen if something happened to your wife, your kids came running to you for help and you were drunk? What kind of impact would that have? Kids don't get over that kind of sh#t, it has an impact that can last years into adulthood.
Whatever screw-ups are in the past, there is always room for things to get better or worse, based on the choices you make every day. One day at a time.
If you make a mistake and fall down, get the feck back up and keep trying.
Word.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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it's cool it means i can drink again.
the only reason that i was clean was in attempt to salvage my failing marriage.
Being there for your kids isn't a reason for staying clean and sober?
If you're going to stay but be a drunk, it might be better if you're not part of their life.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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you folks are not complete strangers,
and that is why i slap my weak hand down on your table.
i don't give a f*#k if i've not met most of you,
we share a kinship of the mountain-lore,
and also the kinship of real-life mishaps and struggles.
thank you for your considerations and donations of wisdom.
there should be a money pot of sorts that i can
drop some bills into as a gesture of thanks to my good peers, here.
yea i'll carry out my year goal of being sober.
and the more i get into it, the more it, sobriety,
accepts me, and i honestly consider not going back there,
but i don't know.
i've got good friends here that would open their property
to me, im sure.
i'm considering undertaking
an open-bivy approach to my turns with the kids.
if someone will rent me a patch of land, oh i can make it happen.
separation is likely the next chapter of my travels.
it's scary and uncertain but i look forward to learning
what lessons this new challenge will grant me.
take,
norwegian
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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Good man, Norwegian, you are showing much better thinking.
There's a wealth of support on this thread for how much better things can be after the worst is over.
Stay strong
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Hang in there man. Sometimes it hurts so bad that it ain't funny, and then when it hurts a little more, it gets funny again.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Edit: And on a serious note... one of the keys for me to break out of my negative patterns is to have compassion for myself. That doesn't mean to condone whatever things I'm doing that I don't want to be doing... it means to recognize that negative self-judgment is part of a cycle, and the cycle can be more easily broken by focusing on that point. The negative cycle: mess something up, judge self badly, have justification that I'm not worthy of love, belonging, appreciation, etc... give up and stew in the negative behavior, or pursue some sort of avoidance tactic (e.g. whatever is your chosen addiction), which further reinforces the negative self-judgment and reactive behaviors.
So for me, the way to fix this stuff, after breaking the cycle at the point of self-judgment and guilt/shame, is to focus on the core needs of love, belonging, appreciation, and to figure out what is triggering me to feel a deficit of those things, and how I can deal with those issues on an emotional plane after I have identified them mostly in an intellectual plane (with a little help from listening to my inner voice, spirit, intuition, or what have you).
I came to this way of approaching it after years of analyzing my repeating patterns, recognizing what was coming, and trying but failing to use more will-power to change my part in the cycle. But in the critical moments my brain would slip into fight-or-flight mode, intellect turned off, and the pattern repeats. At some point I came to facing what was happening in the emotional space that rendered my intellect unusable at the moments I really needed it. It works.
I tend to over-share here on this kind of stuff, but it is a sort of gospel I want to spread because it has made such a positive difference in my life. I think we all keep learning lessons throughout our lives, but I am in so much of a better place now, and I was so frustrated/angry/hopeless for so long, that I hope this perspective I'm sharing will give hope to others.
Edit edit:
One thing I do regret, is that my ex-wife and I didn't sit down together and explain things to our children together, to help manage their expectations and give it a more healthy spin. I wanted to, but my ex was of the mindset "you left me, so you're leaving the kids too." If you still have a civil relationship with ex and can at least agree to figure out how best to manage the transition for the kids, I advise having this conversation now. There's a decent chance that adult relationships will deteriorate and it's good to set the foundation for the kids in a more healthy way while you have the chance. Problems related to this led to an extra 4 years of rockiness in my kids' relationship with me, much more to their long term detriment than to mine (though it has been quite painful for me), and it is only now when they are a little older to have deeper emotional conversations with me (and have more access to me after years of legal fighting to make it happen), that things are consistently better between us. Time will tell how it all plays out.
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H
Mountain climber
there and back again
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Good luck to all who are going through this kind of thing. It ain't easy for anybody.
Wedge, Hang in the Bro. There is nothing Booze will make better. Surly no one can miss puking on them selves etc.
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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hoping you can settle things peacefully Norwegian. Booze anin't the answer, that's fer certain.
Things are looking up in my world. Divorce is eminent, but were maintaining a civil composure and things are mostly settled. I'm gunna be alright. New opportunities, friends and adventures are popping up left and right. It's hardest on my little girls but they are hanging tough and I'm rocking fatherhood like never before...
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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we all grow, of hardship.
im glad to hear of yours, mr. nut-again.
and of lambone's progress as a father.
i'm the one that asked for this separation.
our's struggle is of the parental variety.
my wife and i truely adore one-another.
love is thick and sweet between us.
though i've a vein of anger, within me.
it comes out most at times when i'm thin:
too little sleep, too much stress, too little self maintenance (climbing),
and then the difficult child rears some hearty emotional development all at once and i stumble, and swear.
i've never raised a hand on any of the girls in my life, and i am very proud of that.
the drinking, way back when (4 months ago) would lubricate the expression of this anger, so i stopped.
we've had a smooth two months, which is a great stroke of progress.
last weekend, i was tore out of an afternoon nap by some trying display from the 10 year old.
i uttered, "f*#king kid," to no one in particular.
the wife heard this, her eyes turned red, and the rest of the day only got worse.
other than an occasional immature uttering, i'm a bitchen dad.
i really am. i help, i deliver. i treat. i teach. i challenge. i motivate. i adore. i praise. i lead. and i follow them.
i've got one last wish in my heart, regarding this relationship.
the delivery of this wish could well-save the limping thing. i'm gonna put that wish on my wife this morning. and let her make of it what she will.
my last ultimatum is a wish, and it is this:
i want her to, in ear shot of the children:
acknowledge my progress as a person (no booze, decreased expressions of anger, starting up two thriving companies;)
praise my efforts and accomplishments as a father;
recognize that this family needs me, immensely;
and tell me she loves me and will fight to keep me.
this may sound narcissistic, and it is.
but, swear i,
every last ditch effort that ever was in our family,
has been on my shoulders, begging for forgiveness in front
too many judgmental eyes.
and, honestly, i deserve their adoration and acclaim.
i too deserve their scrutiny and critisism,
but in the overall scorecard,
i as a father and as a husband have
delivered many, many more blessing that
i have delivered hardships.
i'd cross my fingers but i utterly hamburger-ed them yesterday
flip-lining a large dead tree in neighborhood proximity (at 200 bucks an hour BAM.)
cheers you ripples in calm water.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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I think you present that as your honest assessment, and ask her if she agrees.
Then express your concern that you feel the communication in front of the kids has been too negative, and that you would feel encouraged if she would put forth some positive words in front of them.
Somewhere in there you mention that you are still stumbling on the anger front, but feel it is improving and you are aware and working on it.
Good work on getting things turned around. Hopefully she sees it also.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there say...
good to see the update, lambone! :)
nice email, too!
also, say, norwegian...
as to this quote, from clint, this does sound very good:
I think you present that as your honest assessment, and ask her if she agrees.
Then express your concern that you feel the communication in front of the kids has been too negative, and that you would feel encouraged if she would put forth some positive words in front of them.
Somewhere in there you mention that you are still stumbling on the anger front, but feel it is improving and you are aware and working on it.
Good work on getting things turned around. Hopefully she sees it also.
three cheers and keep up the good work... :)
it is true for all concerned:
fatherhood, motherhood and childhood respect,
it does all work together, with hearing support and
showing it for things done well... and talks of the hard times
and stuff, are nicer done with all sitting down at the table for
'family talks' instead of 'hashing and lashing out' at each other
through the house in front of kids...
so here's hoping for this dream of yours, 'daddy is meeting goals'
to come true, as to becoming part of homelife-shares, too...
:)
edit:
more nice words from fletcher, too:
But one thing has not changed and perhaps will help you sort all of the other things that wear on you: Both you and your wife are still and will always be the parents of your kids. That will never change. You may have your differences, but please, for the sake of those girls, work hard to do your parenting together. I speak from experience. It's hard work, but really paid off for my daughter, former wife, and me.
and nutagain!, too, sharing ... :)
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Those are some good looking hands Norwegian!
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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Unsolicited advice. Whereever you end up next, I agree, consider your kids. Don't get too caught Up to not consider compromise. You seem like early an air stream kind of guy. The mobility might be nice. Your daughters could help choose, and maybe decorate one too.
The woods are always there with their impermanence and changes of season. We all could use a guide at times who knows there is a way through.
Not to ground you, but the man might not understand the open bivy.
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