New fire south of Idyllwild

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TGT

Social climber

So Cal

Jul 22, 2013 - 04:44pm PT

The same thinning procedures that were applied just outside the wilderness boundary, in Humber park itself and in town should be executed all the way up to the ridge and then all the way to the burn line.

After that controlled burns would be effective.

Patrick Sawyer

climber

Originally California now Ireland

Jul 22, 2013 - 05:13pm PT

Growing up in Saranap (unincorporated between Lafayette and Walnut Creek), we had to go through 'weed' abatement every year (we had an acre of land). The county (Contra Costa) would come by every year and say "you cut it or we will and charge you".

And we always did, my mom did not like the idea of having to pay for it when she had three sons, and for a couple of years we had goats to eat the grass (and they ate just about everything else that was green, stripping our willow and cherry trees, but I love goats, howdy Chaz, how are your goats?).

I am surprised that some areas like Idyllwild and other rural areas in California do not have similar requirements. Maybe they do and I just don't know. So I may be speculating out of my arse.

But as an homeowner (I am not) I'd think clearing the land around your house would make sense. I am not judging anybody. Just wondering.

mouse from merced

Trad climber

The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.

Jul 22, 2013 - 05:31pm PT

Just want to check in to say that I'm so relieved that such a huge fire missed you Idyllwilders.

And Ward Trotter, those are some fine pix, too. Impressive array of pumper trucks there. Thanks for posting them.

Patrick Sawyer

climber

Originally California now Ireland

Jul 22, 2013 - 05:39pm PT

Yeah Ron, sheep... almost as stupid as turkeys (I worked on a ranch for a laboratory, we bled sheep, rabbits, a pony, chickens, not the best part of my life, but we were as humane as could be, and I was studying medicine and the bloods of the animals were used for testing for pregnancy and other medical conditions, all the animals were treated with humane conditions, but the sheep, they would just go out in the pasture and die, not feisty like goats).

Sheep can eat up a moon-scape like you mention. And they tend not to have a will to live. We never "overbled" them, we kept it within bounds of legal and humane requirements by law (the company was based out of Danville, CA, the farm/ranch, outside of Martinez). The animals were treated as best as possible and we had very little loss of all of the creatures... I made sure of that in my short time there.

I look back and wonder. (I love animals and have worked for them - supporting animal charities, donating my time to cleaning animals from oil spills in SF Bay, working for vets in high school and two summer schools of vet aide courses and training, but some people like PETA probably would want to throw paint on me for my very legal and humane lab work. I was working in a lab and ranch and we were humane as could be... no difference than working at a blood bank).

Back to the topic, using animals to clear the land for firebreaks - goats are better IMO.

neebee

Social climber

calif/texas

Jul 22, 2013 - 05:59pm PT

hey there say, all... just wanted to check and see how everyone is doing...

it seems like things are better?
i can't really tell and cannot go back to check all this...

hopefull--it sounds better from this bit that i read...

TGT

Social climber

So Cal

Jul 22, 2013 - 06:02pm PT

Just NOT in wilderness areas.

Therein lies the rub.

The wilderness boundary needs to be redrawn at the ridgelines above town where it makes sense.

I've seen this happen before.

Domelands was a place of incredible beauty when the Cannels ranched it, logged it and took care of it.

Then they were bought out and it declared "wilderness". 30 years or so of neglect later it was a brushy, choked and unhealthy forest that one day exploded.

It's now a depressing moonscape and will continue to be so for at least another couple of generations.

Patrick Sawyer

climber

Originally California now Ireland

Jul 22, 2013 - 06:05pm PT

Oh no TGT, not Domelands, I always wanted to climb there. I'll google pix of the place, is it that bad?

EDIT

I am a die-hard liberal (though some of my training has contradicted that), but I do not even know who the Cannels are. But sometimes, as history has shown, those who seem to be raping the land, SOME mind you, are actually protecting it, though probably for their own means and wealth.

Still, now I am going to sound like a libertarian or tea partier, and I am NOT, the government can mess things up. Checks and balances in a democracy include the natural resources of the nation.

That said, in the long term I'd rather see the govt take care of America's lands that the greedy corporations.

Gawd, have I hijacked this thread?

Again, as mentioned earlier, best wishes to the people, residents, firefighters and all of this fire.

TGT

Social climber

So Cal

Jul 22, 2013 - 06:13pm PT

I was back into Bart a couple of years ago with Todd, Epperson, Reesa and Tucker ten years or so post fire.

It was about the most depressing hike I've ever been on.

It was a hot fire and there are few signs of recovery even after ten years or so.

Didn't go up to the Fist or the Knuckles, but I'll bet they got the same kind of damage Elephant rock did in the same fire year.

It didn't get to the base of Bart though.

To your point, there's the whole notion of the "Tragedy of the Commons" that's at least a few hundred years old.

Ward Trotter

Trad climber

Jul 22, 2013 - 06:19pm PT

Since you guys like the photos here are a few more from last week:

Fat Dad

Trad climber

Los Angeles, CA

Jul 22, 2013 - 06:41pm PT

Domelands was a place of incredible beauty when the Cannels ranched it, logged it and took care of it.

Then they were bought out and it declared "wilderness". 30 years or so of neglect later it was a brushy, choked and unhealthy forest that one day exploded.

I understand your basic point, which, if I understand it correctly, is that private enterprise can sometimes can do a better job of management than the government. However, I think your interpretation of the Cannels having done a superb job can be misleading. First, forestry isn't necessarily management, clearing brush, etc.; it's just cutting down the biggest trees and leaving a bunch of flammable remnants on the ground when you're done. Second, they may not necessarily have had to contend with the same conditions, climate, etc., that we have today. Simply because they haven't had a significant conflagration isn't evidence that they were good caretakers. It could simply be evidence that they were lucky. If you start with the premise that forests were pristine by the time man arrived, I think it's a tough argument to make that man is suddenly needed to sustain a "healthy" forest.

TGT

Social climber

So Cal

Jul 22, 2013 - 07:16pm PT

it's just cutting down the biggest trees and leaving a bunch of flammable remnants on the ground when you're done.

That's not how it's done. Especially if you have a financial stake in the outcome.

Do you think all those slash piles that used to dot the landscape around the Needles years ago piled themselves?

loggers did that.

That's another area that's going to incinerate sooner or later now that logging and responsible management has been forced to a stop.

mouse from merced

Trad climber

The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.

Jul 22, 2013 - 08:23pm PT

Hemos superado el fuego con la gracia de Dios!
Whew!

johntp

Trad climber

socal

Jul 22, 2013 - 09:27pm PT

Then they were bought out and it declared "wilderness". 30 years or so of neglect later it was a brushy, choked and unhealthy forest that one day exploded.

I remember thinking ten years or so ago while camped near saddle junction that controlled burns were needed in the SJ wilderness. Not the conventional type, but basically controlled bon fires where the dead wood is marshalled to "fire pits". After the bon fire is done, hit it with an air drop or two to kill the coals. Of course it would have been a monumental task to have any real effect. But looking at the damage and expenditures in the last week, maybe not so far fetched.

Psilocyborg

climber

Jul 22, 2013 - 09:44pm PT

the backside out by caramba, to red tahquitz, to saddle junction is extremely overloaded with fuel

TGT

Social climber

So Cal

Jul 22, 2013 - 10:19pm PT

that's exactly what was happening in the S Sierra with the logging. The price of taking some mature stems was policing up the area and clearing out the brush.

The reason you saw the slash piles all summer was that they waited till late fall, just before the first snowfall to burn them.

Ken M

Mountain climber

Los Angeles, Ca

Jul 23, 2013 - 02:40am PT

What is it that they are not doing that they could be? I'm not familiar with whatever yard clearing policies they may have up there. I have a place where they now monitor and ticket to see if your lot has been cleared to 100 ft. of the structure, which is usually done by burning or hauling away the detritus. However, in the same community, there is a push for "thinning", which I see as double speak for logging, which would create some cash for the community but do nothing to prevent or limit the scope of a fire should one pass thru the town itself.

Good question.

I wasn't so much talking about defensible space, although that should be a priority in any urban/wildland space. It makes such a difference in safety for the firemen, that it should be a requirement for insurance, IMHO.

I'm really talking about the forest, itself.

Most mature trees have some fire resistance---but not from a catastrophic-level fire event. Everything burns down.

If you look at most of the forests in Ca, you will see that they are FAR too dense. Way too many trees growing. They are competing for nutrients, water, sunlight. It means that ALL the trees are stressed, and less than healthy. This is because the area is not exposed to regular small natural fires, which would burn out the small stuff.

In some areas where the dominant climax species requires fire for the cones to open or germination, you have invasion of trash species, like the lodgepoles invading the red fir stands.

The biggest problem that I hear about (I volunteer as a wilderness ranger in the Sierra NF), from those who would allow more fire, and use it as a tool, is that the various Air Quality Boards in different regions PROHIBIT any burning except on the absolute clearest days. When you factor in the requirement for moisture in the fuel, wind conditions, temperatures, etc, it means that there are VERY VERY few days when it can take place.

A few years back, SEKI was sued by the South Coast Air Quality Management District for burning when they said they could not. So we have two gov't agencies, spending tax dollars suing each other in court?

The impact of a major fire is terrible, not only on the trees and the trails, but on the animals/birds in the area, as well. Much smaller fires give them a chance for relocation and survival.

Gal

Trad climber

a semi lucid consciousness

Jul 23, 2013 - 02:44am PT

Ward, I liked your pics.

Pie

Trad climber

So-Cal

Jul 23, 2013 - 03:08am PT

When can we climb there again? Any ideas?

Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber

I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!

Jul 23, 2013 - 04:59am PT

why don't they just let those suckers burn? cheaper, safer, and prevents future fires, just build your house out of bricks,

Indians knew more about fire than we do,

Halon? hope not, gotta go for the PhostrEx,

i say this as i eat cereal engineered by the evil Monsanto company, did your know that Justice Thomas was a big wig at monsanto?

how many lawsuits does monsanto lose? none.

head of the EPA for the pacific northwest? ex monsanto exec,

leader in lobby money? monsanto,

worst US disaster? Texas City, monsanto again,
what was the question?