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Amber.C
climber
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It's pretty obvious to me, that if these three superstar respected the one day of fixing, none of this would have happen.
Probably hard for western climbers who fear brown people to comprehend.
I have literally no idea how your first sentence relates to your second, but I guess that is about par for the course with your posts that I've read in this thread.
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orle
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2013 - 02:38pm PT
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Those people in Katmandu probably just thought the leopard was trying to fix their ropes.
Sure seems like it. They put down their work en masse and went after the son of a bitch.
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nah000
climber
canuckistan
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i think a good part of how people see this incident is dependent on whether they view this through the lens of everest being a typical recreational climbing environment or whether they see everest as a dangerous work environment. most sherpas are not on everest primarily to chase a climbing dream, but rather to punch a clock in order to provide a small living for their families while doing a job they have reasonable expectations they may not make it home from.
i'd dare anyone here to go to a dangerous construction site, say one with underpaid ironworkers for example, and begin the day by skipping the safety meeting, move on to breaking safety protocol in front of the foreman [whether the protocol was rational or not], then cuss said foreman out when he gets pissed, and finish everything off by completing other people's work.
finally said construction site is at altitude.
those of you who are shocked by what happened have obviously never f*#ked with the foreman on a construction site where not following rules means you're putting another workers life in danger…
none of this makes what happened "right" and i have no idea whether moro, et al were willfully negligent or whether they innocently stepped into a maelstrom.
but couple the above with long standing cultural frustrations and yeah even rocks at people's heads is not as shocking as reading the original reports makes it out to be.
whether everest should be an environment where clocks are punched is another question. for the time being that is the reality.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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No trolling, when I was there 10 years ago the Maoists were very influential in the Solo (lower) Kumbu and were extracting money from the porters that lived in the Solo Kumbu but made the bulk of their money working in the Kumbu.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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It's pretty obvious to me, that if these three superstar respected the one day of fixing, none of this would have happen.
http://www.explorersweb.com/everest_k2/news.php?id=21439
I've heard four days, not one and the link above supports this. Meeting was on the 18th. Altercation was on 27th. Sounds like 26 and 27 was rope fixing (and still not finished), and two days before that "scouting" the best line for the fixed ropes.
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michael feldman
Mountain climber
millburn, nj
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It seems to me that there was simply no excuse or justification for this to escalate into violence. Why should one set of climbers wait to climb simply because another set wants to climb at the same time (in this case, to fix ropes)? I get it if there is a true safety concern - however, under such a theory, once the first 10 or 20 climbers head to the summit from camp IV, all others should wait so there is not a bottleneck. I do not hear any outrage over 100 climbers all leaving at the same time for summit day. In this case, I understand there are numerous reasons why the Sherpa were upset (and there are surely numerous "potential" reasons). However, Steck and Moro had every right to be climbing to the side so it fit their schedule. As far as I know, they were not using any Sherpa support, so they can do what they want. For example, would it be wrong for Sherpa (or anyone else - not to single out the Sherpa) to get upset if on the main summit day for the commercial expeditions, Steck and Moro decided to also climb to the summit and bypass the fixed ropes? What if it made other climbers nervous to have Steck and Moro so close on the route? And yes, I understand that they did not have a permit to climb to the summit from the South - this is just a hypothetical.
I have tremendous respect for the Sherpa, their culture and the hard work they do. I do not consider this incident to reflect upon the Sherpa as a people, but rather the particular individuals involved. That being said, even if these individuals felt insulted, they had no right to resort to violence as a result. There is no one group or individual who has more right to be on the mountain than others. Even if Steck and Moro had been total A-holes, attacking them should not be acceptable.
Finally, while I am happy that some mountains like Everest and Denali have a degree of self-regulation, this self-regulation is really optional. Climbers have no right to enforce their own code of conduct on other climbers. That is what makes mountaineering so wonderful (well, one of the things). Imagine if someone climbing without O2 on Everest thought it was ok to punch someone climbing with O2 because that person was moving faster, or imagine the person with O2 laughed at the slower climber without O2 and a fight started? That's not what the mountains are about.
I am glad everyone seemed to have apologized, but unfortunately, it appears that this incident will have lasting effects. Ironically, even though the violence appears to have been done by just a few Sherpas, their reputation as a group will likely be damaged (which is a shame).
That's my 2 cents
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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The aforementioned 2 cents is worth a helluva lot more than what you're blathering, Ron.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Ever met Lois, Ron?
How come you two are never seen in the same room together?
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jstan
climber
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Will the app for blocking used by Tacoans run on OSX for pre-intel processors?
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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Too much money being made And the Sherpas know it
Maybe its Time for cracker to kick down If they want to go climbing
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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"we look at Sherpas as third world labor because of the color of their skin and economics of their country, and this is hard for white people who have lots of money to understand."
Coz, you hit the nail squarely on the head.
Don't believe it? Turn off the revenue stream and see what happens.
My Mothers side of the family come from those known as Sioux. John Trudell speaks eloquently and the attitude translates pretty well.
" White people are not racist because they do not know any better or because of some kind of natural us-and-them “tribalism”. It goes far deeper than that. To see people of colour as the human beings they truly are would mean whites would have to see themselves as they truly are – and deep down they know it is not pretty."
There, that ought to start some fires. Perhaps a good hard look at the reality of guiding Everest and what that entails is in need of a overhaul. When the money gets big enough, it's all about the money. I really wish them luck in sorting this mess out. Feelings have been hurt and trust betrayed. I do feel if the truth be known, we may will find bruised egos on both sides of the Sherpa vs. the non commercial climber issue, with an under tow of lost revenue, a sense of entitlement, and a cultural strain exacerbated by a language barrier. All of these things contribute to the growing circus that is the Everest experience these days. And, in more than one aspect, I find this whole episode sadly ironic and inevitable. I am not however surprised.
TY
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michael feldman
Mountain climber
millburn, nj
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Note that this is NOT a matter of giving back Everest or the land to the Sherpa. The land, and thus the mountain, are already "owned" by Nepal and China. Thus, there is no one to "give it back" to - unless you are suggesting that the Sherpa form their own country and own Everest. In all seriousness, until recently, there was nobody on Everest, so there is nobody to give it back to. While there is no doubt that the Sherpa do the majority of the hard work on commercial (and many other) expeditions, they do not own the mountain any more than anyone else. The Sherpa are paid for these services and it presumably does much good for them, their families and their communities. To the extent it does not do them good, it would be easy for the Sherpa to get together and refuse to provide any services on Mount Everest or any other mountain they want. Perhaps that would completely change the mountain. Or perhaps, others would fill in.
In the end, if people simply respected each other (even if they disagree) and understand that mountains are for all (hey, can't we all just get along), everyone would be better off and we would not have this unnecessary violence which benefits nobody.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Everyone is making money off of Everest - the Nepalese government, the western guide services, and the Sherpas. There's no way a handful of Alpine purists are going to prevail over that. The goddess who lives on the top of Everest by the way, is the goddess of wealth, one of the reasons the Sherpas feel free to participate in the whole scene. They believe she blesses the whole enterprise, otherwise it would not have turned out so well for them.
A few other cultural corrections. The leopard killed was a lowland variety, not a snow leopard. Those leopards do not go above about10,000 feet and the snow leopards do not come below 12,000 feet. The snow leopards do not attack people, only livestock, possibly because their territory is less encroached upon.
There are so called Maoists in Sherpa land. Mostly they are in the low altitude areas and are comprised of poor Sherpas and people of other ethnic groups who are less fortunate. Many people calling themselves Maoists however, are simply taking advantage of the chaos to even scores against rich people and those they don't like. Maoism in many areas (Makalu being the worst and also a mixed Sherpa territory) is a simple extortion racket often aimed at passing expeditions.
The Chinese archives will have nothing on Sherpas. Prior to 1951, there were only two Chinese officials in Lhasa and the occasional trader. Any reports about expeditions were written in Tibetan. After the 1959 invasion, the Chinese sealed the border to western expeditions and the Chinese expeditions to Everest which started in the 1960's, employed only Tibetans, not Sherpas. Nowadays western groups going to the north side take Sherpas with them, and whatever is written in Chinese is almost certainly done by their security services and classified. Their main concern for both westerners and Sherpas is that they not help Tibetans escape across the border or even witness the killing of those who try.
If a person wants to get incensed over the guide services, the story of the Tibetans including a young nun, gunned down in full view of climbers at base camp on Cho Oyu, and the attempted coverup by the guide agencies so as not to anger the Chinese and jeopardize the climb, is the worst in my books. The episode was exposed by the way, by climbers from eastern Europe and guides from South America who had seen enough of dictators and totalitarianism and posted photos on the web. The two guides were then blackballed the next year by the guide services and had to work elsewhere.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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Wondering how many here have had bed tea @ 7100m? or have even met a sherpa?
jus sayin.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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You got it wrong, coz.
Sherpa's overreacted 10x and I hope they go to jail.
It's a f*#king mountain. Anyone is free to climb it by whatever means.
Sherpas pride hurt - bfd.
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Amber.C
climber
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Sorry, for your lack of reading comprehension.
Do u really need it spelled out for u?
Edit,
For u and DMT, we look at Sherpas as third world labor because of the color of their skin and economics of their country, and this is hard for white people who have lots of money to understand.
I'll try to be less metaphorical in the future, LOL:)
The problem isn't that you're overly metaphorical (I didn't see a metaphor in there, but let's leave that aside). It's that your argument is incomprehensible.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and interpret your "argument" to be something like: white people side with other the Europeans because they are scared of brown people and view Sherpas as expendable laborers. In other words, we are treating this situation differently because the Sherpas are "brown."
But I don't think that's true at all. In fact, I think you're treating the situation differently because of who is involved. Again, imagine if this happened in the US: say I'm doing an independent climb of Liberty Ridge and RMI is guiding a bunch of people up. I'm moving faster and going to a higher camp than they are. We're on an area of 60 degree ice and I am staying away from them to the extent that is reasonable. At some point I have to cross over their lines to get to my camp. I do so at the most reasonable point possible--not over top of the leader, trying to be careful not to hurt the followers and belayer below.
For my trouble, I'm pushed or otherwise touched while soloing on 60 degree ice, by someone who is anchored to the slope. And then, when I get to my camp, a group of 100 RMI guides assemble, hitting me, throwing rocks at me and telling me to run off the mountain or they'll throw me off.
If this were RMI guides, they'd be fired, and face criminal penalties both for the punching and stoning and--arguably--for the attempted manslaughter of pushing someone off a 60 degree pitch of ice to their deaths. But I guess you accept this kind of behavior for the supposed infraction of stepping gingerly over someone's rope? Or are you treating the situation differently because of the color of the participants' skin?
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Amber.C
climber
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P.S. Coz, I assume you think DMT should have been hurled down North Peak years ago. Some years ago he (I think this is the same fella) admitted that he had soloed past a group of roped climbers in an icy couloir up there. He was cognizant of the relatively brief risk he exposed them to from falling ice and did everything he could to minimize that risk, and that's all I'd ever ask from someone climbing near me in the mountains.
But I guess you think the group should have caught up to him, pushed him around while soloing in a you-fall-you-die situation and then met him at camp afterward and pummeled him, right?
Yeah, that sounds like something the SuperTopo community would endorse, eh?
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Amber.C
climber
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Hi Jim,
I didn't know America was mythical. I think you're mistaken. Drive south on 99 a bit and I think you'll see it's a real place.
More to the point: what is different about the two situations that I described that justifies very different reactions (I think almost everyone here would roundly condemn a guide on Rainier in the situation I described, but many are not doing the same re: Everest)? And why do those situational differences justify those disparate reactions?
I don't mean to turn this into a debate club, but as long as we're talking about colonial oppression and labor exploitation, we might as well get the ethics here f*#king straight.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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He was cognizant of the relatively brief risk he exposed them to from falling ice and did everything he could to minimize that risk
What if said soloist peeled? More is going to happen than falling ice bits. Just sayin. A roped team in a situation like that could be in a bad situation as long as that guy is up there and they'll be thinking about it.
As far as the RMI analogy goes; Although RMI seems to own the Rainier, there are a couple of independent guide sevices now. Are there independent Sherpa guide services on Everest? It is their country. Are the natives getting wrestless? I kind of hope so. If the Sherpas had more say around there, instead of being the hired help, what might Everest be like - a little more like Bhutan? I kind of hope so.
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