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Nick
climber
portland, Oregon
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Apr 10, 2013 - 12:06am PT
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And Guy you slept with Max in your bag because it was cold at night. Damn, even though we didn't get up anything, it was a good trip.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 01:10am PT
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Dr.F ... ditto!
'Love you man don't ever forget it.
You have a valid point in fact; best illustrated by the following question from Dingus.
Dingus asked:
What is Trad Now??
Best guess answer: a range of things, dependent upon whom you talk to and what locality you are in when you ask the question.
It is in flux.
Likey it ranges from what it was 30 years ago all the way to sport climbing on gear (headpointing).
10 years ago a twentysomething climber told me he was going to get into "hard trad" in Eldo: he was referring to head pointing.
But I don't even think he recognized that distinction.
Any posturing you see coming from me is a combination of goofing off to the max plus defining it as it originally existed at the end of the 70s just before sport climbers coined the term.
As I said way up thread: what the hell do I know?
I'm counting on all of you to help answer the question!
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Apr 10, 2013 - 01:14am PT
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No we're t rad. ;p
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Apr 10, 2013 - 01:18am PT
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Help! All my friends who exclusively sportclimb call me a boulderer, my friends who exclusively boulder call me a trad climber, & my friends who exclusively only place their own protection call me a sportclimber. I'm so confused, it's like puberty all over without the high school counsellor to help explain that everyone has pimples.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Apr 10, 2013 - 01:23am PT
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Trad? I'll tell ya.
Climbing a route rated 5.9+ in 1957 by Kamps, Rearick, and Herbert.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 10, 2013 - 01:30am PT
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perspectives
on the evolution of the endeavor we call climbing
we are not done yet.
the individual eventually ages and no longer can climb the rock of ages
but the act is eternal and finds it's expression on any level.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 01:34am PT
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Bingo!
The term is essentially an anachronism at this point, [or at risk of becoming one] because it is absorbing things like head pointing.
Yet, lots of young climbers can totally rip it up exactly the way I defined it in the OP.
But they get there by doing a whole lot of other stuff.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Apr 10, 2013 - 01:35am PT
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Dingus asks a good question.
I think I have an answer: Trad today, is Miles and Amy climbing FA's on the towers of Paine.
Nick... yes Max would help keep me warm.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 10, 2013 - 01:41am PT
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Trad is yer mama. Really. Think about it.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 02:02am PT
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Usage is really getting twisted around in some circles.
It's as though Miles and Amy are doing "old trad", while other climbers are doing "new trad" or postmodern trad if you like, which is pretty much head pointing. Perhaps that's why they just eschew the term altogether and call it "gear routes" ... a bigger category.
As Werner stated, things are always evolving that's for darned sure.
Usage does evolve and as Kevin noted sometimes things are just flat-out lost in the process.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 02:18am PT
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Dingus Milquetoast helped underscore this perspective:
The redefinition of trad to 'climbing with a rack' is nearly finished. A few more of us old dogs will have to stop insisting on the archeological definition of trad....
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Apr 10, 2013 - 02:20am PT
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Trad
Climbing unbolted routes higher than half a ropelength?
Was trad once upon a time, what it is now known to have been? Eastern Europe. Elbsandstein. The Alps. America.
The institute of concept emptying
Edited:
Trad Riccardo Cassin and Georges Livanos style: Rock conquest
Trad Emilio Comici and Berndt Arnold style: Rock care
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Apr 10, 2013 - 02:27am PT
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Usage does evolve and as Kevin noted sometimes things are just flat-out lost in the process.
Kevin is correct, I have watched climbers, climbing "TRAD" for want of a better word, just cranking up something like "spook book" and after getting the crux clean, get to the 5.8 part and yell "TAKE" just so they can look around.
They are clearly not playing the "FREE CLIMBING GAME" the same way we did.
I do admire the "HEAD POINT" folks. Some dudes did a variation on Airy Interlude where they went straight up the water grove (12.b/c)from the point where Airy goes right. These boys didn't use bolts but preferred to TR the heck out of it. They got in about 3 pieces and were willing to take huge falls, and they did do some big air time, to do a FA. I think its called Pulp Fiction.. or something like that. Kris knows.
I think that climbing like that, giving the stone respect, says a lot about who those guys are. They are TRAD.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 02:40am PT
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I'm hearing you there Guy.
Essentially younger people are just so used to climbing so darned hard through sport climbing, that trad as we knew it puts them on ground way below their abilities.
So if they go the head point route in terms of style, they can maintain the hard climbing game to which they are accustomed and still use only trad gear and respect the rock.
This is exactly how all those hard El Capitan routes are done. And we know they do tremendous runouts on mank gear and lots of that on-site.
My sense is they don't care what it's called.
And when they want to they can on-site pretty darned hard stuff anyhow. I'm guessing they don't even call it trad: they just call it on-site climbing of a gear route. Or a section of a gear route.
They are free in a sense, as we were not because we were self-limiting, to use all these different tactics so they just don't see an either/or picture.
It's like a kaleidoscope now and they grab whatever they need in the moment.
Their perspective is completely different so their entire sense of terminology may be rendering the old term unnecessary.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 02:51am PT
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I think a good way to try to characterize the difference is that we are linear thinkers and they are not.
Another way to say it might be: our conceptual framework is two-dimensional and theirs is three-dimensional.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 03:18am PT
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Trad as we knew it is perhaps nearly irrelevant.
A historical artifact or in the process of becoming such. And lost on many; as in not even present in their conceptual framework.
I can only speak authoritatively as to what it WAS.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Apr 10, 2013 - 03:21am PT
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I'm guessing they don't even call it trad: they just call it on-site climbing of a gear route. Or a section of a gear route.
That's all most of my friends really pride themselves on in the end. Onsight, flash or red point. Onsight being the obvious; first time, no beta, no hangs. Flash being; the latter but with beta, and red point being; having climbed the route previously and getting it clean on lead. Which is why i don't get headpoint, because it's just a redpoint.
I think you are right though roy. Being as the original term meant traditional, new school gearheads should instead refer to themselves as T-RAD climbers.. ;)
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Apr 10, 2013 - 03:28am PT
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Trying to think in dimensions (gliding scales):
Rock conquest/Power - Rock care/Ethics
Heroism/Duty - Play/Having fun
Exploration - Repetition
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 03:42am PT
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Which is why i don't get headpoint, because it's just a redpoint.
I'm glad you asked that Mike.
It is a red point, but of a route with minimal or no alteration to the rock , and not just a crack you can sew up.
The term head point really meant: sport climbing tactics except bolts are out. So it's mainly to do with how the route was constructed.
It's a British term. It may never have caught on in America I wouldn't know. I'm suspecting it hasn't. In this regard you are correct: red point of a gear route.
The reason the term developed as HEAD POINT was because the terrain, left unbolted, was generally known to be quite dangerous. So doing it with what little gear was available, being constrained by gaps in available gear, was a HEADY thing to do, even in red POINT fashion. Crucial point: almost always requiring prior work on top rope before the red point.
How's that?
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