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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Feb 15, 2013 - 08:19pm PT
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The rules of war are far different than the rules the police should abide by. As a citizen I believe we all have the right to express how we think the rules should be applied, armchair or not. Would lives be endangered by trying to wait the turd out. Doubtful given the resources of San Bernardino, LAPD and the FBI. If our police are not willing to abide by the rules then they should find another line of work.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Feb 15, 2013 - 08:38pm PT
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If our police are not willing to abide by the rules then they should find another line of work.
Poitn well taken. But in my experience, the "rules" that matter to those actually involved are written not by legislators but by - those involved. These rules say - here lies a killing field. Once you enter it, guns drawn or blazing, you are fair game. We in the peanut gallery say the people involved should behave as we see, under our oversight, but has this ever really played out in the real world, or do those with the weapons and official status and those who are outlaws just do pretty much as they please, and have done so since the beginning of time?
Jon asked a grat question: Why not just starve or wait him out? Why couldn't the police just spend a few weeks there till the dude ran out of grub and water and had to give up? Because they cannot postpone their need to immediately gratify bringing "justice" to bear. Why spend time and manpower. Blow the place. Be done with it. Move on.
Seems kinder harsh, though.
JL
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Feb 15, 2013 - 11:14pm PT
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It's a simple power play. Cops are hired to control things that are otherwise dangerous. If they need apply deadly force, we trust them to do so for our well being.
And that's the crux, eh?
When that trust is abused for laziness, expediency, revenge.......a road is then gone down, where police are empowered to judge people, and administer "justice" to them. It certainly used to be that way routinely.
Right now, we (the community) believe that the police will murder someone if they think it is expedient. I think that many cops carry a "throwaway" gun, so it can be planted when needed.
Is that acceptable?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Feb 15, 2013 - 11:20pm PT
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let he who is without fear get point on that breach. Let he who says it was over the top go first through a door. Then let those statements out. Easy to critique from a five hundred miles away. I notice ive not seen any one say they would have gone in after him..They knew he was on a do AND die mission. He did too.
So, Ron, are you advocating they should have gone in? No? Then NO ONE has advocated that....so what's your point?
Your last statement is the apparent fulfillment of the situation. The guy is wounded, the house is burning down on top of him...his choice is to be burned to death, or kill himself, believing that he will be shot if he raises his head. Gosh, amazing how you made happen what you predicted, which justifies your action. Policelogic.
You beat the crap out of someone, and they try to crawl away....indicating they are resisting. Policelogic. Beat away.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Feb 15, 2013 - 11:25pm PT
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I guess I am bothered by the police taking affirmative action to ensure that there is no recording of what they did. (and why did they not record it themselves?)
They asked the media to stop filming and move out of camera range. They COULD have asked the media to stop BROADCASTING the video live.
Now, there is no record.
And the police getting up and stating that there was no effort to ignite a fire, when there were radio transmissions that said exactly that.
It is a matter of what lies they think they can get away with....just as usual.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Feb 16, 2013 - 10:24am PT
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I saw an interview with the guy who was forced out of his car by Dorner, and then Dorner sped away. That man said that the first thing Dorner said to him was, "I don't want to hurt you." And then Dorner took his car to flee.
This is a very revealing fact, in that it showed Dorner was not simply a homocidal maniac. Yes, the murder of the woman and boyfriend was murder of civilians. But they were related to one of the police which he was apparently trying to get back at. There is some logic there, albeit a twisted logic that is consistent with the whole vendetta he apparently had with LAPD.
The overall issue here is that cops, in general don't have a sense of ethics or morals that guide them in carrying out their difficult jobs. Hell, they can't even follow the written rules that they are supposed to. Here in Boulder, a community that has much less in the way of dangerous crime than in LA, there have been a handful of cops that have gotten in trouble from such things as DUIs, threatening a former girlfriend, to (unbelievably stupid) poaching a trophy elk in a busy neighborhood while on duty, in the last year. These idiots are not Boulder's finest by any stretch of the imagination.
I don't know why anyone with half a brain would want to be a cop. And therein lies the problem. In my opinion, the vast majority of cops take the job because they simply aren't qualified to do good work of any kind, or the power trip that they crave is readily available. Police departments like the LAPD, and even the Boulder PD are full of such corruption and stupidity that as long as they have the power that they do, they will never be there to "protect and serve". I have seen this up close, and it is disgusting. That they are essentially a group of hired thugs is why they have so many problems obeying the laws that they are sworn to enforce. This is why so many people like me empathize with anyone who challenges the police, even if the way they do so is this terrible.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 16, 2013 - 10:31am PT
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the vast majority of cops take the job because they simply aren't qualified to do good work of any kind
Stupidest brainless statement in the whole thread.
No wonder "Americans are Stupid" .....
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 16, 2013 - 10:36am PT
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the vast majority of cops take the job because they simply aren't qualified to do good work of any kind Sh#t I always thought it was cuz they got picked on in school!
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Feb 16, 2013 - 10:54am PT
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Yeah whatever Werner. At least its an opinion. Your constant reminding us that Americans are
stupid , and your faux-Zen bs that you grab whenever it's convenient would actually be the stupidest sh#t spewed on this forum at any given time. You're no more wise than the rest of us that you call stupid Americans, and your obvious and constant arrogance out you for what you really are.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 16, 2013 - 11:04am PT
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You're obviously are a real Stupid American. ^^^
Try not take yourself so seriously .......
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Feb 16, 2013 - 11:17am PT
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Hook, line, and sinker...
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Feb 16, 2013 - 11:57am PT
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The overall issue here is that cops, in general don't have a sense of ethics or morals that guide them in carrying out their difficult jobs.
No, you don't get it, IMO. The cops don't have OUR sense of ethics. They have their own when engaged in a power struggle involving deadly force. Once that begins, what we believe on the sidelines has little bearing on the fandango. This isn't a matter of it being right or wrong. It simply IS the case. Shoot a cop and the power struggle is ON. It's that simple. We want to instill ethics from without, but they'll never find traction with those in the killing field. Never will.
JL
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Feb 16, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
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I am probably a bit to the right of Ghengis Khan when it comes to law and
order. That said I am dismayed by the Cop Culture. It is like one big
Fort Apache and "we're doing this for yer own good whether you like it or not."
I've met some cops that are so nice that I ask myself how the hell they got
hired and why they did it. I suspect most are nice but they sure as hell
don't get too many recruits from Cal Tech. And, of course, the Peter Principle
seems to reach its fruition in the upper ranks. Whenever those people open
their mouths at a press conference I am often left agog. And don't get me
started on physical fitness. There needs to be more civilian oversight.
And was a lecture really necessary for my doing 80 on a beautiful day in the
middle of Nowhere, Wyoming in a T-5 Volvo?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Feb 16, 2013 - 12:34pm PT
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I've met some cops that are so nice
I continue to suspect that Dorner, once upon a time, was of this nature.
Stating the obvious, life has its seamy side.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Feb 16, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
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Everyone knew deep down this guy was on a one way trip. After he killed a cop I put his chances of survival at zero.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Feb 16, 2013 - 01:24pm PT
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Lets make a public monitoring system. All cops and politicians are on public accessible network of audio video feeds.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Feb 16, 2013 - 02:22pm PT
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Largo, you're making this too philosophical. There is a code of something that cops are supposed to follow when they carry out their duties as law enforcement officers. The non-emotional side of me knows that there are good, professional cops. I have a hard time acknowledging that given my experience with cops and everything one hears.
Most cops don't follow that code; laws, your ethics, my ethics, whatever you want to call it. That's why so many people do not trust cops to protect and serve. That's a real shame. Society should be grateful to those that do it's difficult and necessary work.
And Werner, I don't take myself so seriously as you think. Just get tired of you playing your thing both ways.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Feb 16, 2013 - 02:43pm PT
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Actually, my point is an entirely practical matter, sans ALL philosophy.
Philosophy is a cognitive process. A power struggle plays off aggression, which is a brain stem or instinctual energy much more primitive than thoughts. Once that gets engaged, and its aggression against aggression, oversight committees and fancy ethics and so forth simply find no play in many cases.
My point being what we might like - total accountability and adherence to a sober, humane ethic - is something having nothing to do with the power struggle itself ("good" versus "bad"). We on the sidelines WANT responsible, non-violent action if and when possible, but there is no way to impose this on the folks in the fray. That leaves us blathering on the sidelines, like two bald men arguing over a comb.
What we are doing here is having a conversation about a milieu where our opinions count for little to nothing at all. That brings out the advocate in some of us - and this also has no bearing on the power struggle, which mostly operates on its own set of rules. This short-circuits many still under the illusion that public policy need only be on the books to count in the real world. But history does not bear this out at all.
JL
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Feb 16, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
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Cops are a reflection of society. there is good and bad in both realms.
I worked, and mountain biked with a really nice kid. He decided that he wanted to become a cop(which he did). He said one of the reasons he wanted to become a cop is so that he could ticket all the yuppie girls, and their ilk, that used to snub him.
Back in 2006, I was driving my eighty-eight year old mother to Missouri for family business. Got pulled over just east of Flagstaff because "we fit the profile of drug runners." wtf
Like 'em or hate 'em cops are a necessity because they prevent anarchy, and anarchy begets chaos
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 19, 2013 - 02:28am PT
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Poitn well taken. But in my experience, the "rules" that matter to those actually involved are written not by legislators but by - those involved. These rules say - here lies a killing field. Once you enter it, guns drawn or blazing, you are fair game. We in the peanut gallery say the people involved should behave as we see, under our oversight, but has this ever really played out in the real world, or do those with the weapons and official status and those who are outlaws just do pretty much as they please, and have done so since the beginning of time?
My point being what we might like - total accountability and adherence to a sober, humane ethic - is something having nothing to do with the power struggle itself ("good" versus "bad"). We on the sidelines WANT responsible, non-violent action if and when possible, but there is no way to impose this on the folks in the fray. That leaves us blathering on the sidelines, like two bald men arguing over a comb.
There are two "real world" games going on.
There's the one between the cops and the perps, and we're on the sidelines in that game. With Dorner the cops won that one.
Then there's the game between the cops and the public. We're non on the sidelines in this game.The cops are dependent on the public for support. They need the public's tax dollars, respect and the support of the public serving on juries. In every interaction with a perp, they can gain more support or lose some of the support they've gained in the past.
In this game, the Dorner interaction was a loss for them.
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