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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jesus said; unless U become as a child U will NOT see God!
But it takes an adult to understand that!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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and who was Jesus?
John 20: 30&31:
Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of [his] disciples that are not written in this book.
But these are written that you may [come to] believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through this belief you may have life in his name.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Now I lay me down to sleep,
I pray the Lord, my soul to keep.
If I should die before I wake,
I pray the Lord my soul He'll take.
Please God allow these atheist to see the Light!
Amen
Good Night!
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slayton
Trad climber
Here and There
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Please God allow these atheist to see the Light!
Thanks, but I have my own (non Christian) light to illuminate the universe.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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i believe in science and what it has proven to show the Earth and it's transformations, evolution, etc.
That to me cannot be refuted. Scientific evidence cannot be refuted. Fossils, dinosaurs, early man, cave paintings by man dating back 40,000 years, I could go on.
To say the Earth was created in a matter of days by a sky God and humans just happened to appear here in male and female form out of the blue just several thousand years ago is not logical.
That's what's behind my beliefs.
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WBraun
climber
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Jebus
I never said you're stupid.
I would say that implying your statement (see your quote below)
[I know, Werner, I'm stupid.]
That is making an unintelligent statement that has nothing to do with me.
Thus you can see for yourself you are are just making up sh!t and directing it in any direction possible outside of yourself.
Contaminating your clear thinking of reason and logic will definitely provide you of undesirable results to which you are seeking.
The scientific method requires one to use a clean uncontaminated petri dish and not a dirty contaminated one to start the process .....
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WBraun
climber
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If someone makes a stupid statement that doesn't mean they are totally stupid.
Yet the hard core knee jerk reactionaries here like to make it look like that.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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For the record,
I've grown to appreciate the posts of both Jebus and WB, I'm sure I'd enjoy a climb with either. How about Bloody Corner on Russell? For starters. Then Western Front. Then a run back to the Portal for burgers. Let me know.
But no talking stupid. During the climbs.
.....
Oh, this bears repeating:
I believe that we as something like advanced atmospheric phenomenon inhabiting the face of this planet probably are incapable of truly clear thought anyhow.
Reminds me of that Haldane remark.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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If we all come from Adam and Eve, then we are all related. Incest is the best.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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and who was Jesus?
i've noted this on other threads, but it bears repeating. i'm basing my observations on a catholic upbringing, which employed a version of the bible called the douay-rheims, which they claimed--i think with good cause, based on the recent nonsectarian scholarship of elaine pagels and bart ehrman--to be closer to source texts than the more beautifully poetic but poorly authenticated king james version which most protestant americans grow up with.
i note some interesting aspects of jesus's rhetoric, and i'd be interested what others with some familiarity with bible scholarship may have to say about it. for one, jesus never claims to be god. also, he rarely speaks of god--rather he speaks of "his" father in heaven, adding things like "i and the father are one" and "no one comes to the father except through me".
isn't that interesting? he doesn't say "no one comes to god except through me". he does seem to speak of god occasionally, but usually he speaks of "the father".
jesus seems to have had a certain coyness on this subject, and he seems to have set others in his circle up to make declarations as to his true nature, as if he were either unsure of it himself or too humble, shy, or afraid of saying it himself directly. after all, the implication of divine powers and consequent blasphemy was what got him executed.
there is also an intriguingly recurrent third-person phrase, "the son of man," apparently, although i suspect not necessarily, referring to himself, coming back at a future time in apocalyptic circumstances.
the deification of jesus came later, after christians hashed things out--and they still haven't settled it.
the relativity of scriptural declarations came out in a different way in a discussion i had with a jewish friend about the ten commandments. we catholics were always taught, "thou shalt not kill". seemed pretty black-and-white, and based, i'm sure, on the old douay-rheims. other denominations have slightly different sets of commandments--there has been that much textual controversy over the years. but my friend was somewhat appalled. "it's 'thou shalt not murder', not 'thou shalt not kill'." i guess there's always a good excuse for something as drastic as killing. that commandment doesn't seem to get too far into the criterion for it, however.
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WBraun
climber
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Dr F -- "To say we believe we (or I) are (is) God is ridiculous,"
You misunderstood just like Ed and others did.
God is by definition an Absolute Authority, (just one of his infinite attributes)
When God is rejected due to poor fund of knowledge such as the incomplete conclusions of modern gross material mechanistic science then that entity takes on an air of authority.
Thus her claims are that modern gross material mechanistic science is the new authority masquerading as "like god" due to their frustrations of not finding the absolute source of all.
Modern materialistic science is just using the wrong tools for the job of finding (God) and are rigidly entrenched in those methods (ascending process and reductionism expounded by Largo in another thread.)
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Someone here is wrong and they are afraid to accept that it might be them. Our lives are ruled by fear and we can only become more than a dumb animal if we stop letting that fear dictate our beliefs and our actions.
Dave
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WBraun
climber
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Our lives are ruled by fear
Typical knee jerk reaction by someone due to poor fund of knowledge.
This isn't about fear or someone being wrong although to you it seems that way.
Sectarian religion may be fueled by fear but that is a defective method.
Modern material science is not fueled by fear.
Spiritual science is also not fueled by fear.
The western gross materialistic mechanistic science has no real problems except when it tries to apply its material methods to a spiritual science that it has yet to really grasp and fully understand.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I think I touched on that Werner, but that my post was too incoherent...
but as Feynman explains in that video clip, he is not looking for "absolutes" as there is no indication that such at thing exists, or that it could be something that is studied.
there has been a long history of seeking such absolutes, and in particular, trying to understand the "condition of man" in an existential sense. What we know now (and I know you will disagree but you are wrong) is a great deal more than what we knew 200 years ago, 2000 years ago and 20000 years ago. What we know informs this discussion.
What we do not know also informs the discussion, and defining that, putting it into a form that is useful, has largely been due to science (and its critics, but to be a critic there must be something to criticize). Philosophy and religion has set the stage as to what those questions are, science has been not so slowly explaining them.
For instance, "the origin of the species" is well explained by evolution, it is doubtful that any reasonable person could formulate an cogent argument against evolution. Evolution, from its very first presentation, begs the question of abiogenesis, for which we have various ideas but nothing that is predictive in the way scientific theories must be.
The origin of this current universe is also known, it's details refined as cosmology becomes a modern science, and in so doing starts to reach back to the time before the big bang... which might be difficult to understand but is very much in line with the progress being made in cosmology. These phenomena, life, and the universe, are well described by science and do not require the intervention of any thing else.
As Weinberg had said, in another video linked on a similar but separate thread, ultimately we cannot explain everything by science. I think his implication was that ultimately we cannot explain everything. But interestingly, we keep pushing that "ultimate end" farther and farther along, with science. There has been little new of late coming from either philosophy or from religion... if that is an inaccurate statement I'd like to be corrected.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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I agree let's not argue! Let's talk it out so we can all understand.
The Bible describes the Father,Son and Holy Ghost as one Being. And yet three. Something we quite can't understand. Maybe because we're locked in these body's? But the example of Father-son relationship I can comprehend. And the Love there being. What I've learned from the Bible, God IS Love, and where He sits is so Holy NOTHING but Love can approach Him. I do not believe God interjects with us when we go astray. We are simply walking on our own. Which is dangerous because the ruler of this world at this time is Satan. God of lies. But when we Love and seek our Father in Heaven. He sends His Angels to help us along our way. God did many things on Earth before christs crucifixion. He made a deal with Satan to stand aside for a period of time. God knew that His flock would return to Him, and some would be lost. God gave us the freedom of choice. Through our heart God speaks to us with Love. Through our minds Satan deceives us. The lie of many churches is that Jesus was no one special. But without His blood we would all be condemned by the law.
IMO
BB
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Let's talk it out...
No, let's not.
Take your questions to the Christian thread. There you can talk about the blood of Christ and the Holy Trio to your soul's content. This thread's a celebration of the athiest life.
,,,,,
I esp like climbing with atheists... and later breaking bread with atheists... because chances are any conversations we have will concern secular matters (aka this-world matters).
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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God did many things on Earth before christs crucifixion. He made a deal with Satan to stand aside for a period of time Speaks for itself
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Sh!t, apparently some atheists love the never-ending battle with theists, perhaps they should start a...
I like warring with theists forever and ever.... thread.
There they can realize their raison d'être day after day for the rest of their lives.
.....
But there are millions of others... post-religious... who have moved on.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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What else is there to talk about??
Tons of stuff.
I would rather talk about evolution, but no one wants to discuss it,
Sure they do.
and there is not much to say about it anyway.
Really? I think the likes of Dawkins and Myers might disagree. Maybe.
Go watch Star Trek Voyager, Distant Origins, available at Netflix. It's got some interesting thought-provoking ideas. Watch it. Bring one of these ideas here and we'll discuss it, lol.
...the debate, and it will go on forever, as long as there are theists.
Could be wrong, but I thought that's what your Politics, God vs Science thread was for.
P.S. Nor does this thread always have to have a presence on page one. It could rest for awhile. (While atheists are out climbing, e.g., or making love.) Right?
More later...
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