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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 23, 2012 - 12:58pm PT
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Ken M, amatures you say? A PD ivocled shooting a few years back involved about eight washoe county sheriffs, reno pd and NHP. The victim tried a suicide by cop deal, and 115 rounds later he had been hit three times. I know many "amatures" that shoot a thousand percent better than that.
PERFECT EXAMPLE!!!
NO, you don't!!!!
Shooting at clay pigeons or paper targets is NOT like shooting at people, although amateurs always think it is.
When in a crowd of shooters, what do you think your primary issue is in firing your gun?
NOT HITTING THE OTHER OFFICERS and potential bystanders, as opposed to shooting the target, as you might think.
Rarely in such situations would police be lined up shoulder-to-shoulder, execution squad style, blasting away at a target sitting in front of a bullet-proof wall. They are all over the place, behind shelter...and the perp may be in front of other people, or buildings with other people inside.
Idiot amateurs think only of the target. They RARELY think about what is BEHIND the target. They rarely think about what the ammo they are shooting may do to other places that may be hit. Professionals are very aware.
So in your scenario, if it had been a bunch of amateurs, I'll bet they'd have pumped in about twice as many bullets, have hit the perp more times, and hit a few cops and bystanders, as well.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jul 23, 2012 - 01:07pm PT
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"The human will is the root cause of incidents like this. The tools are a footnote."
"fear...agreed. ^"
So if that's the case, why aren't mental health programs more broadly supported by the same party that supports unfettered access to any and all types of guns?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 23, 2012 - 01:12pm PT
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What makes you think mental health isn't supported by everybody?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jul 23, 2012 - 01:14pm PT
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Because the mental health sector doesn't contribute enough campaign dollars and the NRA , i'm guessing , donates lots of cash to the Pro Gun Republican party...?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 23, 2012 - 01:15pm PT
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So if that's the case, why aren't mental health programs more broadly supported by the same party that supports unfettered access to any and all types of guns?
answer: because mental "health" is seen by that party as a "social issue"
and social issues are to be dealt with without societal help as in without needing tax dollars
this is where "personal responsibility" comes in
mentally sick people should remain quietly sick and deal with their own problems
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jul 23, 2012 - 01:17pm PT
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Ken M wrote:
Amateurs are not experienced with such situations, and they tend to shoot all over the place, shooting, for example, off-duty cops because they have drawn a gun......
Ken, if that happened frequently, or even now and then, I agree it would be a valid concern.
Can you identify either statistics or anecdotes where citizens lawfully carrying guns attempting self-defense shot off duty cops by mistake? I've never heard of that happening. Plenty of times that cops have shot people under very questionable circumstances, however.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jul 23, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
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Two off-duty cops in Orange County got into a shooting match with each other on the freeway via a road rage incident...Oops...!
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frank wyman
Mountain climber
helena montana
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Jul 23, 2012 - 01:23pm PT
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When seconds count, Police are only minutes away...
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jul 23, 2012 - 01:29pm PT
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I don't think this guy meets the standard, either legal or DSM-IV, for mental illness. I think he just didn't want to live anymore and wanted to get as much revenge on the evil world as he could on the way out.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jul 23, 2012 - 01:32pm PT
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The weird thing is that he almost got away with it. He was out back in the parking lot when one of the police who'd arrived noticed the gas mask he was carrying. Probably would have caught him eventually, due to all the bizarre gun and ammo purchases.
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beef supreme
climber
the west
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Jul 23, 2012 - 01:36pm PT
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DonPaul, I agree with you. I think this guy is probably perfectly 'sane' (whatever sane really means, it's gotta be some kind of average). Just because we cant comprehend the actions and we see it as insane, in my opinion, doesn't make the person doing it insane. Pretty deliberate and thought out best I can tell. Same w/ the norway guy.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 23, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
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the "same party"?? uhhmm Apogee, Obama has been fairly SILENT on any gun control issue not to mention incresing our abilities to carry in Natl parks. hrmmff hrmff..
Ron, you are referring to the wrong political party
Apogee was referring to the Republican Party, not the Dems
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jul 23, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
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The really aggravating thing about you gun-rights nutz is that you rant and lobby loud, effectively and will not compromise on anything that even remotely resembles a limitations or procedural requirements for obtaining any & all firearms, no matter how extreme....
...while out of the other side of your mouth, you acknowledge that the perps of these extreme events are clearly mentally ill, and that the source of the mayhem is the people, not the guns....and then go on to fight any & all efforts to develop social programs that would address that mental issue.
It's a frustratingly childish dichotomy.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jul 23, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
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Who needs an Kalishnikoff when your packin sledz...Know what a mean...?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jul 23, 2012 - 02:34pm PT
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jul 23, 2012 - 02:49pm PT
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If I saw someone selling machine guns in the back room of a bar, I'd have gone straight to the cops.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 23, 2012 - 02:54pm PT
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No,
suicides by gun were THE highest percentage of gun related deaths
There were 52,447 deliberate and 23,237 accidental non-fatal gunshot injuries in the United States during 2000.[4] The majority of gun-related deaths in the United States are suicides,[5] with 17,352 (55.6%) of the total 31,224 firearm-related deaths in 2007 due to suicide, while 12,632 (40.5%) were homicide deaths.[6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jul 23, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
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80% of "our" killings were gang related
source for that?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 23, 2012 - 03:06pm PT
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my wiki leak is interesting
in that more people killed themselves, suicide, with guns than killed other people
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 23, 2012 - 03:08pm PT
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what?
I did NOT BLAME anyone or anything, Ron
all i did was show a link from wiki showing how the percentage of gun deaths break down
what the hell are you mad at me for?
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