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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Jan 21, 2012 - 02:17am PT
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I understand that for some people it hurts to compare the Compressor route to their national toy: the Nose. But in both cases Harding and Maestri were violating the dominant ethics of the time. In both cases their achievement was an expression of human willpower, stubborness, rebellion, anarchy and outrageousness. Most climbers support the purest ethics, but we also need these outstanding characters and their routes are, we like it or not, a monument of less collectively accepted behaviors.
The Italian-American-Argentinian Rolando Garibotti always heavily and unfairly criticized the Maestri "ferrata", which for most climbers is still a super-challenging route. He carried on a systematic anti-Maestri propaganda suggesting implicitely or explicitely to "purify" the Compressor route. But he was smart enough. He didn't have the courage to expose himself, but "sent" two indoctrinated boys to do the dirty job.
This shows something to me. That climbing ethics is a no man's land. That anybody can go in a different country and play the policeman to arbitrarily bolt or chop historical routes. If argentinians would have done it would have been more acceptable. Now, I'll see how much bolts these two guys removed from the Compressor route. And I hope they are consistent and brave enough to do it in their own country, possibly starting from the Nose. If this is not the case, I'll adopt myself their arbitrary attitude and I'll do everything possible to carry on their mission. This is a promise.
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Kinobi
climber
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Jan 21, 2012 - 02:26am PT
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Let me tell you my non american point of view.
I apologize for my english.
In my apionion, you americans are not getting the point how arrongant you can be. In general, non in the mountains. As a country that represent citizens.
Don't you like Saddami Husssein: bomb Iraq and kill thousands of people. And leave a mess.
DOn't you like Afganistan: go there an bomb all. And leave a mess.
Don't you like Panama: bomb the towns. And control all.
Don't you like Grenada: Invade them... And control all.
I can go on for hours.
What's next, Iran?
Whatever it was right to chop, or leave there, the compression bolts at their choice, I think everybody could have decided, but not americans.
Best
Emanuele
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Jan 21, 2012 - 02:35am PT
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In my apionion, you americans are not getting the point how arrongant you can be. Don't equate the criminal actions of the US as a global superpower with dumb little arguments over a few pieces of metal on some rock. The victims of US aggression number in the millions and a single life is so much more important than some bolts in a rock...
Do you think all Italians wanted to join the Axis? I seem to remember stories of more than a few Italian soldiers welcoming Allied troops because they'd been against joining with Germany all along.
There are more Americans against US foreign policy than there are Italians in total.
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Kinobi
climber
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Jan 21, 2012 - 02:36am PT
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Man-tana: you see, you are not getting the point.
You americans believe you are always right and you can do whatever you want whenever you want, wherever you want.
Bolts, money or bombs.
Leave, you americans once in a lifetime, somebody else in this world, the right to decide.
Ciao,
E
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bmacd
Mountain climber
100% Canadian
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Jan 21, 2012 - 02:40am PT
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it was a Canadian driving the bus you myoptic Knob !
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stefano607518
Trad climber
italy/austria/switzerland
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Jan 21, 2012 - 02:42am PT
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wow Emanuele,
do not be so extreme...
one of the guy is canadian anyway....
all i want to state here is that i think that the next will be the nose.
promised (even if a climb another route close to it by fair ...is aided climb fair??? means)
S.
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stefano607518
Trad climber
italy/austria/switzerland
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Jan 21, 2012 - 02:44am PT
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ehy kinoby you are off topic...and it´s getting silly and useless.
It´s even a bit dumb your position i must say ;-)
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Brady
climber
Boulder, CO
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Jan 21, 2012 - 02:46am PT
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Jimmy Chin and I tried to climb the Compressor Route in 2001. We got up to the shoulder and did some character building in an ice cave but never got a window for an attempt. So we spent the better part of a month carrying gear around, slack lining and hanging out with John Bragg in Campo Bridwell. John was down for a solo attempt on Fitz Roy but suffered from the same lack of good weather. We were honored to hang out with him, but there was one problem. He kept calling our route the “bolt route”, refused to call it anything else and couldn’t understand why anyone would want to climb it. This initially harshed on our buzz and later caused us to question our intentions. During our last few days I eyed the direct route up to the col de Esperanza and decided if I were ever to return I would attempt the Ferarri (Ragni) route. I just couldn’t get “bolt route” out of my mind. I’ve stood on top of Fitz Roy twice but never returned for another round on Cerro Torre. I’ve largely given up alpinism for various reasons, but I still think about Cerro Torre and long for one more go on it. If I were to do one more alpine trip, that would be it.
I’m not entirely comfortable with what Jason and Hayden did, for reasons that have been well documented above. Then again I didn’t initially like John Bragg’s opinion of our route of choice either, but I came around and began dreaming of climbing one of the world’s greatest mountains by fair means. In spite of all the self-righteousness in this thread, the removal of the Maestri bolts was morally ambiguous and always will be.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Jan 21, 2012 - 04:29am PT
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FYI, Hayden Kennedy is the son of Michael Kennedy long time editor of Climbing magazine and now Editor-in-Chief of Alpinist. I wonder what his feelings are about the chopping of the Compressor Route?
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New Age II
climber
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Jan 21, 2012 - 05:21am PT
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I see no difference between the Nose and the way the compressor .... on both the streets there are people that go up in the stirrups and people (the Nose) that have done it for free ... but Lynn Hill did not controversy, saying unrivet, everything that does not serve on the Nose ... maybe this year will unrivet Rolo in the Nose ... of course, must do so for free. :-))
Excuse my English .... SALUT
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 21, 2012 - 06:29am PT
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Who are we to decide what was a good or a bad style those days...
Largo covered the essentials in his response, but it should be noted there are plenty of older folks here who know exactly what was good or bad style in those days and if you dig around on google you will find many of them expressed their displeasure with Maestri's debacle in writing at the time.
Also, 'history' is a decidedly low bar which includes the worst of who we are along with the best and in this case one person's 'history' is another's stain to be removed at the earliest opportunity. Some history we're saddled with, like Jardine's chiseled traverse, and there's little to be done about it, but Maestri's debacle has never been that as the bolts are easily rectified and could have been cleaned up at any time. Definitely a case of better late than never from my perspective.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jan 21, 2012 - 07:43am PT
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Funny how most of us americans can not hear it when forigners tell us how arogant we are. we simply tell them they are off topic..
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Scole
Trad climber
San Diego
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Jan 21, 2012 - 07:53am PT
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I think they forgot to take this with them.
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Rockymaster
climber
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Jan 21, 2012 - 08:38am PT
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FOR ALL OF YOU POSTING A REPLYING HERE... DOES ANYONE LIVES IN CHALTEN??!
I DO,and the feeling donw here is pretty much the same as when David Lama left all the trash up there and the they returned fully ashamed to what they did...
THESE GUYS, ALTHOUGH THEIR CLIMB WAS GREAT, SHOULD DO THE SAME;
For those of you that climbed and been in the Chalten area wouldn't even think about of doing something as silly as like these guys did.
WHAT's DONE IS DONE, LEAVE HISTORY AND THE MOUNTAIN IN PEACE...
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ezy
Mountain climber
padova
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Jan 21, 2012 - 09:08am PT
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Sorry for my poor language.
I agree with the views of Enzolino, Kinobi, fòradaiball, New AgeII.
We do not know exactly what happened and the details of the great performance of Hayden Kennedy and Jason Kruk but if what I read about the wipeout of the Compressor Route is true not only my strongest critics, but the need to open a wide debate involving the public throughout the mountaineering community.
The style and motivation of Cesare Maestri that can be defined in many ways indefensible but which are part of that anarchy inherent in going to the mountains and has always been inherent in climbing.
And precisely because of this anarchy, this freedom, we should not criticize - just to stay on Torre Egger and Cerro Torre - on the routes 'construction site' more open seasons, or those made entirely from the fixed ropes on the compressor, as well as on the aluminum box.
But criticizing Maestri destroying his route means step into his own defects. With no action because Taliban historicizes, with ignorance, historical and human context in which the events took place in 1970.
Because does not reflect the opinion of the mountaineering community as it did in 2007 thanks to the local climbers led by Vicente Labate
http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?l=2&keyid=35788
Because hypocritically takes away the bolt from Compressor route and other uses in their route variation
I think that as these events were held on climbing and do not make it offends the memory of great climbers, not only to teachers but Steve Brewer and Jim Bridwell, Bill Denz, Paul Pierre Farges, the Italians of the first winter, Pedrini, Reinhard Karl and hundreds of other great climbers ...
The boundary that lies between tradition and innovation, modernity and the past experience is weak, and a strict ethical judgments, however, should not excuse ourselves from than ever, mountaineering and human, towards those who went before us.
grazie a tutti
http://alpinesketches.wordpress.com/
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 21, 2012 - 09:28am PT
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It is funny that I did not see this much outrage from Internationals when David Lama was going to rap bolt the thing and left all his heavy stuff behind. Hmmm???????.
The real "disrespect to those that came before" was Maestri's.
He took his own, his partners and his country's exceptionally proud history of alpinism and left a steaming coiler on it for the whole world to see. So, NOW, what if there is a more logical route instead? A route synergistically connected to the mountain not imposed upon it. A route with a more appropriate number of bolts. I think that is a good thing. The cleaning down of the Bolt Route was not a disrespect to the great heritage that came before. It was a tribute to it. Maybe now Toni can rest in peace.
Personally I think it would be awesome if some near future team had the strength, temerity and where with all to lower the Compressor down carefully. Put that in a museum and salute it. Sadly it will probably just get chopped by man or mountain and end up as shrapnel all over the place.
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gimmeslack
Trad climber
VA
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Jan 21, 2012 - 10:00am PT
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As best as I can tell:
//You're wrong, dear one wire, it will be fun to see your reaction when climbing the Nose and other emblems of American will disappear, because of your arrogance, but this bitch in the censer. In addition to the damage, but the prank .... but it is only begun, for you I would not be very quiet. Before the Masters no one has gone up, the others are American stories, and are good for any child at bedtime.
With your system, anyone can get on any route in the U.S., using less material is fixed to those who have preceded him, is authorized to remove anything that is not used, it seems logical.
The fact bring up Toni Egger, in this context, it shows the stupidity of those who do not know what to invent, to divert attention from the bravado of his brothers.
If it is true that every action has a reaction, you will have many surprises, good luck.
For your comments, you only have to be ashamed.//
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Jan 21, 2012 - 10:07am PT
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These threats to chop The Nose and other El Cap routes are kind of funny. I guess the people posting them don't realize how easy it would be to re-establish any of the routes in question. But go ahead I suppose.
Actually, for enzolino and others claiming they will do this, I've got a better idea for you. Chop the bolts/rivets on a route called "Nightmare on California Street". You should be able to easily get up most of the route from the ground, and then you can chop it on the way down. That would be harder to fix than The Nose...
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 21, 2012 - 10:12am PT
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Yeah we know you Italians Love your Ceasars.
Butt don't get your pasta in a pinch.
You have my permission to haul compressors all over ElCrap if you want and pull or chop what ever isn't necessary. There, feel better?
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