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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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I disagreed with DR about the Growing Up deal, but he's right here.
Keep it pure and adventurous can be taken to the extreme. Why put pro on anything? Don't we want it to be pure?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Karl, I wholeheartedly agree. The main problem with guidebooks is they tell you everything about a route you can figure out for yourself and none of the story of the FA which you can't usually know on your own.
I can figure out the difficulty and gear on my own - what I always want to know, but never hear, is the story of the FA of routes I jump on. I fear we are leaving a legacy of relatively meaningless numbers while losing all those [priceless] stories.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Add 5 bolts to the pitch.
Edit: Sorry to come into the middle of the discussion but see above.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
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Leave it alone, it has done fine on its own for a long time, leave it alone. Let others test themselves on it the way you did.
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powderdan
Social climber
mammoth lakes
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i think toulomne would be a much funner place to climb overall if there were more safe routes. that goes for moderates as well as hard routes although its curious how much safer most hard pitches are(?!)than easy ones. imagine if we still climbed exclusively gound up. times have changed.as long as were placing bolts....free the rock for competent leaders.yosemite granite belongs to all of us and not exclusivley to 5.12 climbers who can comftorabley solo 5.9.
ps im not condoning retro bolting the BY...its easy to toprope solo!
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 2, 2011 - 06:02pm PT
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Much food for thought here and I appreciate all the ideas. We who treasure TM have a responsibility to think about the effect of our actions on the present community and future climbers, even with respect to an issue as trivial as a few bolts on an obscure third pitch.
Here is one idea suggested by the discussion above. Let’s say there were added three bolts, so that there were 32 foot (130/4) run outs between bolts. Still exciting for the 5.9 leader, especially given Greg’s observation that you could fall off the edge of the aręte, but no longer deadly. Paint these new bolts yellow, in keeping with the chicken theme, as Steve suggested.
If you do it without the chicken bolts, you did Super Chicken, if you clip the yellow bolts, you did the “weenified” (great new term) variation, Chickens**t.
Increased traffic on that third pitch might be nice because it would open up this pitch for intermediate climbers, but is it a good idea in the longer view? Maybe it is for the best that the upper part of the route sees little traffic, since to escape traffic is one reason we seek out places like TM.
I have had to give some thought about my motivation for running out new routes in those days, especially in light of Jim's and Peter’s posts. Competition was a factor. Like the generations before us, we competed with each other in both difficulty and self-control in dangerous situations, so there was some of that involved.
But part of the motivation was idealism. I started climbing in 1971, the same year that Reinhold Messner, likely the greatest mountain climber of all time, wrote an influential article in Mountain Magazine, the “Murder of the Impossible.” He wrote,
Expansion bolts are taken for granted nowadays; they are kept to hand just in case some difficulty cannot be overcome by ordinary methods. Today's climber doesn't want to cut himself off from the possibility of retreat: he carries his courage in his rucksack, in the form of bolts and equipment. Rock faces are no longer overcome by climbing skill, but are humbled, pitch by pitch, by methodical manual labor; what isn't done today will be done tomorrow. Free-climbing routes are dangerous, so they are protected by pegs. Ambitions are no longer built on skill, but on equipment and the length of time available. The decisive factor isn't courage, but technique; an ascent may take days and days, and the pegs and bolts counted in the hundreds.
See Steve’s thread on the article here: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=852835&tn=0
It is a fact that with a bolt kit and enough bolts, you can get up anything in Yosemite or TM. Back in those days in Yosemite, the equivalent of the Wings of Steel controversy was the debate over the Dawn Wall and whether excessive bolts were used to put up that route on El Cap. For me and my circle, it was a goal to use as few bolts as possible. We weren’t thinking about future ascents, or whether the route would be popular 30 years later, but we didn’t want to carry our courage in our rucksacks.
I would have loved to have done Super Chicken with no bolts, but 5 was not a bad day’s work for that long a route (and Jim placed 3 of those :) ). Accounts still differ on how the belay bolts at the top of the third pitch got there. But if Jim is right that originally that pitch had no protection or belay bolts, what may have motivated me was taking the principle of bolt avoidance a bit too far.
The season is over in TM. I’ll be back up next year and I think I’ll wait until then before making a decision. Quite a few on this thread have done the complete route and maybe a few more will do so and report back with fresh observations.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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For me and my circle, it was a goal to use as few bolts as possible.
I guess the issue comes when top climbers put up routes far, far, far below their limits and those routes are then deathly dangerous. It's like pretending a man with a gun and a deer with fur are evenly matched opponents.
So if you're pickin' on somebody your own size, run it out! But otherwise time has shown that x-rated moderate routes in Tuolumne are not popular with those capable of doing them with any confidence. The first ascent party and a few teams after it get an adventure and bragging rights but everybody else is chasing other glory
Peace
karl
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Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
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Rick,
I've done the route. Keep it as it is. The grade is very moderate and in Tuolumne Meadows the climbing history and style is all about adventure and not convenience. You were on the FA so you have the right to change it but for my vote I say, leave it be.............Too many routes are getting retrobolted these days...........
JACK
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Could not agree with you more Karl. It's fine for good climbers to run out pitches that are easy for them but it's ego gratification of a low form for them to object to having the route made safe for lesser climbers. Jim Erickson is notable for allowing a few bolts to be added on Hairy Pin, opening up a fine route for 5.9 climbers by making it safe without removing all of the spice.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I can sympathize with people who speak as Cragman does as long as they have actually walked the walk.
Personally, after developing that confidence, I found most satisfaction in just soloing routes. I don't get why somebody would want to do X-rated no bolt pitches and take the trouble to bring a rope and stuff unless they wanted to give a buddy a top-rope on it.
I just don't see it happening. Here's a fine route and almost nobody on this board has done it except for a few back in the day and even those were exceptional climbers doing something well below their level of challenge. TONS of us would have done it if it was safe and many of us would have done it if it was just spicy and I'm sure I'd be one.
Yeah, when I lead a 5.6 no pro face, it makes it more exciting but big deal, I still sweat a lot less than a 5.8 climber leading it with 4 bolts.
So Cragman, I can't remember, have you done many of these x-rated Tuolumne routes? If the answer is "no but I aspire to" then I'd like to hear from other 5.10- climbers out there, how many of you aspired to do the x-rated routes and now are doing them?
Cause I used to at least, but still wouldn't (in my mind) selfishly begrudge a few more moderate R- routes to people more challenged by the grade (which is MOST climbers)
Somehow, there's hardly ever a line on the 5.10s and above
peace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Fair enough bro!
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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.............Too many routes are getting retrobolted these days...........
Which ones in Tuolumne would those be?
The safest thing for the belayer on pitch 3 of this route would be to hold the leaders rope until he got about 50 feet away and then take it off belay. Tie back in after he makes the anchor.
Will it be ok if we do it that way Dean?
This is as dangerous for the belayer as the leader. You don't want me to have to try and hold a 250 foot fall do you?
For me, that is sublime.
You can do that soloing anywhere right? You wouldn't want me holding the rope if you come off up there I'm sure.
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tom Carter
Social climber
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Come on... This is kooky.....as TM has told us, " you could fall so far you'll NEVER hit the ground!!!
Could happen.
Imagine that!
Safety kooks, runout kooks, drama kooks ...we got em all.
Much respect for Rick. He was setting the bar bitd.
I like all types of routes including ones that require mental calmness.
The meadows is a special place. Let's make sure a variety of challenges remain -for all.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I think the telling point is that Rick A, whom John Long as spoken of with awe as being head king of the stonemasters for super runouts, in his OP noted that he wasn't himself up to lead that last 5.7 pitch. Surely it wasn't a question of conditioning, This is slab climbing. If Rick baulked at it, I think its over the top
But, there's something you can do when the pro gets scares and balls shrivel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKss2pBYQ6Y
Peace
Karl
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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At this age, and all that comes with that, the roped style makes more sense.
I agree. So what shall we do about this pitch?
Bruce, does this mean you are coming out? Hope so!
I'll be there sooner than you think bro. I'd love to do this thing, but not with any 150 runouts.......
Well Bruce, after my last solo I promised my wife (again) that I would not do anymore soloing. Then John's death finally cured me. That's my whole point Dean. I've got a lot of respect for you, but I don't want to hold the rope when you're that far out. Will you hold the rope for me when I'm 140 ft out?
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WBraun
climber
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When one holds rope on leader 150 feet out and leader falls, belayer just lets go of the rope ....
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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I'll lead Bruce.
Thanks Dean. That isn't exactly what I asked. Do you want me to still be holding the rope when you're 140 ft out?
If so, why?
If I was 140 ft out, sketching, would you want to be holding that rope?
Be honest.
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Mangy Peasant
Social climber
Riverside, CA
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150 feet is not runout - it's a solo. Unless there's nothing but air 150+ feet below. Most moderates routes aren't that steep.
Survival, I'm not sure what point you are making about belaying someone 140 feet out. Are you saying there will be a lot of force on the anchor if you have to catch the fall? It's still a fall factor 2, no matter how far the fall. Force on the anchor is the same whether you fall 20 feet or 200.
(the real problem is the falling climber is prolly going to hit something before the rope catches them...)
But nobody's gonna fall. It's only 5.7, right?
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
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Are we also going to be adding bolts to the last pitches of Piece of Grass, or The Gram Traverse, just to mention two routes that have no bolts on their top pitches?
The first day I ever climbed with Kris Solem we did Piece of Grass. When I was leading the third pitch I am about 100 feet out with no bolts and Kris shouts up to me that if I fall off he is just going to cut the rope because the two manky 1/4" bolts will surely not hold my fall. I told him 'Yes' and knew that I had found a sensible partner. But I would not want to see any bolts up there because then that experience will not be there for any one else.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Survival, I'm not sure what point you are making about belaying someone 140 feet out
The point is that I have no interest in catching a 280 ft fall, possibly with a dead body on the end of it. Do you?
It's highly unlikely that a 20 footer and a 280 footer will have much in common, in the final chapter.
And since no one is going to fall, there's no NEED for me to belay that line. I'll just tie back in after Dean clips the anchor.
The point is that I'm trying to get some people to think here.
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