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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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skip, who is Daniel Greenfield, and where was his inflammatory article published? Some right-wing Israeli blog? Most of what he says is ideologically driven innuendo - his agenda seems a simplistic pro-Israel, pro-US, anti-Muslim one.
Norway will undoubtedly go through a period of self-examination as a result of what happened. A significant minority of Norwegians are less than comfortable with the reality of immigration and assimilation, or to be more accurate, uncomfortable with change. Whether it will lead to any change in its national policies is another matter. They're determined folk.
Norway has long rejected the extremism promoted in Greenfield's article. It supports Israel, but not blindly, particularly that country's intransigence with regard to coming to a reasonable settlement with the Palestinians, and the utterly uncritical support it is given by some in the US and other countries. It also supports the Palestinians, but again not blindly. It is a credit to Norway that although it sees the situation as it is, it doesn't cry "a plague on all your houses", but instead works with both as best it can.
The suggestion that anti-Semitism is common in Norway is laughable, and questioning some of the policies of Israel is hardly the same thing. No doubt there are a few true anti-Semites in Norway, and a few anti-Islam bigots also - exposing them, especially the fanatics, seems a likely priority. But stating that Norway's Labour Party long ago had links with international communism, and jumping to the conclusion that that "proves" anything, or claiming that the murders were somehow linked to state terrorism, is absurd. A sad attempt by what seems to be an American-Israeli author of unknown credibility to blow some dog whistles, in the hope that his extreme audience will drool.
Let me re-emphasize. Norway tends to go its own way in these matters. It doesn't care for the narrow ideological blinkers that the US often adopts, and attempts by ideologically motivated and ignorant US writers to frame the discussion within their narrow prisms are of little use.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Glenn Beck compared the Workers Youth League camp to a Hitler Youth camp
Anybody who quotes Glenn Beck on anything other than recommendations for donuts
is instantly suspect, at best/
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Some discussion, but not true debate, has begun with regard to tightened gun control in Norway. It started a year or more ago, and will now be heightened. The police want tighter regulations, in particular with regard to semi-automatic rifles and handguns. There are about 1.2 million registered firearms in Norway, with about 400,000 holding licences - although many relate to military and civil defence.
A discussion of whether there should be life sentences for mass murders and similar crimes has also begun. Norway has local and regional elections this autumn, and national elections next year.
It seems likely that there will be much discussion before any decision, and they'll wait until the parliamentary enquiry has finished. It seems likely that tighter regulations will eventually result, possibly combined with measures to reduce illegal importation of firearms.
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/02/police-will-have-stricter-gun-control/
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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The following offers some helpful insights, from a Norwegian perspective.
A Blogosphere of Bigots
By Jostein Gaarder and Thomas Hylland Eriksen
Published: July 28, 2011
Room For Debate - Will the Norway Massacre Deflate Europe's Right Wing?
The killings could weaken nationalist fervor in Europe, as the Oklahoma City bombing cooled off militias in the U.S. in the late 1990s.
It is tempting to view ABB, the self-described Christian crusader behind the July 22 massacre in Norway, as an isolated case of pure evil. Yet history has taught us that such acts of violence rarely occur independent of their social and cultural surroundings. The assassination of Sweden’s prime minister, Olof Palme, on a Stockholm street in 1986, like the January shooting of Representative Gabrielle Giffords outside a shopping mall in Arizona, took place at a time when caustic antigovernment rhetoric was widespread.
Mr. Breivik managed to commit two terrorist attacks in a single afternoon. But the hatred and contempt from which he drew his deranged determination were shared with many others throughout the international right-wing blogosphere.
The racism and bigotry that have simmered for years on anti-Islamic and anti-immigration Web sites in Norway and other European countries and in the United States made it possible for him to believe he was acting on behalf of a community that would thank him. As John Donne famously put it, “No man is an island ... every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main.”
Norway’s security police had estimated that only a small number of Norwegians belonged to domestic right-wing extremist groups in 2010 and that they did not pose a security threat — an estimate that clearly has turned out to be erroneous. There may be only a few known members of ragged and powerless white-power groups, but the thousands of right-wing extremists who don’t belong to recognized groups are harder to pin down.
The global Islamophobic blogosphere consists of loosely connected networks of people — including students, civil servants, capitalists, and neo-Nazis. Many do not even see themselves as “right-wing,” but as defenders of enlightened values, including feminism.
The Islamophobes of Norway have no manifesto, but they share three fundamental views: that Norway is in the hands of a treacherous, spineless, politically correct elite that has betrayed the pure spirit of Norwegian culture by permitting demographic contamination; that Muslims will never be truly integrated (even if they pretend to be); and that there is a Muslim conspiracy to gain political dominance across Europe.
Hatred of Muslims and resentment of the left — one of us has repeatedly received resentful diatribes against the “multiculturalist elite,” and was mentioned in Mr. Breivik’s own writings — is not confined to Norway. Mr. Breivik has praised Gates of Vienna, a Web site that compares contemporary Europe to long-ago wars with the Ottomans. He has praised writers like Bruce Bawer, the American author of “While Europe Slept: How Radical Islam is Destroying the West from Within,” and Bat Ye’Or, the pseudonym for the British author of the conspiratorial “Eurabia: The Euro-Arab Axis.” He is an enthusiastic reader of the virulently anti-Islamic blog of Pamela Geller, an American who leads the group “Stop Islamization of America” and gained notoriety for her opposition to an Islamic center near ground zero in Manhattan.
Europe’s new right is, in other words, not neo-Nazi; it has swapped anti-Semitism for Islamophobia. After a hiatus of several hundred years, fear of Islam reemerged around 1989, as the Cold War was ending and Iranian mullahs issued a fatwa against the British writer Salman Rushdie. It gained popularity as increasing numbers of Muslims entered Europe as immigrants in the 1990s, and became widespread in the aftermath of 9/11. Traditional racism may actually be waning in several European countries, but hostility toward Islam and animosity toward Muslim immigrants and their children is on the rise.
Norwegian society is changing, and rapid immigration has no doubt led to tensions. In a country of under 5 million people, the number of immigrants and their children has doubled to over 550,000 in the last 15 years. Many of them are Poles and Swedes seeking work, and their presence is uncontroversial. Others have arrived as refugees and asylum-seekers from countries like Somalia, Iraq and Bosnia. And a substantial number have come to Norway to join relatives or spouses already in the country. About 200,000 — including more than 30,000 Pakistanis — have roots in Muslim countries.
Because of our healthy economy, fueled by North Sea oil, controversies over immigration tend to concern culture rather than economics. The perception that immigrants are patriarchal and insular has sparked controversies over everything from school excursions to swimming lessons to disrespect for female teachers. Yet many “new Norwegians” fully participate in society. Indeed, some of them were at work in the government buildings destroyed last week; others were taking part in the Utoya summer camp.
Conceding that a culturally diverse society raises knotty and complex social and political questions is one thing. It is quite another to state that a multicultural society is impossible, or that Islam is incompatible with democracy. Yet the blogosphere to which Mr. Breivik belonged took these views as a basic premise.
It is too early to tell if anything positive can emerge from this tragedy. In the upcoming elections, Norway’s Labor Party will likely receive many sympathy votes and the right could be adversely affected by its associations with Islamophobia. In the long run, the situation is less certain. In other Scandinavian countries, Social Democrats have been pushed to the right by anti-immigration parties. We hope that Norway’s longstanding consensus about immigration and integration policies will not be eroded.
Until last week, Norwegian authorities did not see the far right as a security threat. Mr. Breivik has now shown that those who claim to protect the next generation of Norwegians against Islamist extremism are, in fact, the greater menace. Jostein Gaarder is the author of “Sophie’s World” and many other books. Thomas Hylland Eriksen is a professor of social anthropology at the University of Oslo.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/29/opinion/Gaarder-Eriksen.html?_r=1&scp=3&sq=norway%20massacre&st=cse
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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•KARAR MUSTAFA QASIM (19)
•PORNTIP ARDAM (21)
•JAMIL RAFAL MOHAMAD JAMIL (20)
•MONA ABDINUR (18)
•TAMTA LIPARTELLIANI (23)
•ISMAIL HAJI AHMED (19)
•MODUPE ELLEN AWOYEMI (15)
•GIZEM DOGAN (17)
•BANO ABOBAKAR RASHID (18)
Most of these nine (out of 77 dead) have been identified as refugees, or children of refugees, from Muslim countries. Five or six, at least, have names of undoubtable Muslim origin. There have been suggestions that the killer targeted young people with non-Nordic features on Utøya.
Names and ages taken from the Norwegian police website: https://www.politi.no/Kampanje_70.xhtml
(Posted in reply to skipt's now amended statement that no Muslims were killed, which demanded names.)
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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There have been suggestions that the killer targeted young people with non-Nordic features on Utøya.
I assume you mean "non-Caucasian" (or "non-white" in more plain English).
From the pictures I've seen, you can't really tell if someone is "Nordic" by looking at them, even though of course things like percentage of people with blond hair, height, etc. vary somewhat among countries.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Time will tell what exactly happened, and some things may never be clear. There seem to have been a disproportionate number of persons from "visible minorities" killed on Utøya, and there have been suggestions that the killer was targeting them particularly. Their being both involved in the Labour Party and apparent beneficiaries of its supposedly lax immigration policies (based on skin colour and perhaps dress) might have been a motive. The evidence would be anything that survivors saw or heard, the actions of the murderer, and the actual results.
That said, the killer was anti-immigration and in particular anti-Islam. The details as to how he acted out his beliefs are less important - he killed a lot of Norwegian citizens.
Despite stereotypes, many in Nordic countries aren't tall, with blonde hair and blue eyes. A fair number are shorter, and have brown hair, and there's some admixture of persons with black hair and brown eyes. Anyone with beige, brown or black skin probably came to Norway (or the parents thereof came to Norway) since the 1970s, as there was little immigration, especially refugee resettlement, before the oil and gas money started to come in.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Yes, I saw the article about the Westboro "christians", and decided to ignore it. All they want is publicity for their evil, and I see no reason to aid them.
Should they manage to get to Norway, they may be denied entry into the country - I'm sure that the FBI will happily provide Norwegian police with a list of names. And if they should somehow get to Norway, and find their way to a funeral, they may find that Norwegian laws and mores regarding freedom of speech (stupidity) are different than in the US. Most likely result is that they'd be arrested for causing a disturbance, jailed, and deported. Although as freedom of religion is constitutionally guaranteed in Norway, they won't be charged with satanism.
The news media is now looking at the police response to reports of the shootings, in particular helicopter use. Mostly second-guessing, as the enquiry will look at it in exhaustive detail. I haven't seen anything specific, but the suggestion is that the parliamentary commission will report within a year. http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/04/ut%c3%b8ya-helicopter-response-scrutinized/
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Rancidfish
Trad climber
Oslo, Norway
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To quote a t-shirt i saw Jonny Copp wear on the film The Sharp End: Unf*#k the world
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Velkommen! Du er nye her. Er du klatrer? Spiser du lutefisk? Kan du kanskje fortelle om Norge og Oslo nå, spesielt siden Utøya?
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Rancidfish
Trad climber
Oslo, Norway
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Takk skal du ha.
Yes, I'm a climber. Mainly trad and i recently got into aid climbing.
Lutefisk, man that taste like sh#t. Almost as bad as rakfisk (rotten fish)
Norway is doin' alright, a lot of funerals this week tho. In the major newspapers there's pics form a new funeral almost every day. It also says in the paper today that the Norwegian Police will be getting help from the FBI. Because the US has something called "Passenger Name Records (PNR)" I think they're tryin' to figure out if he's part of a cell or have been working on his own.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Thanks, RF!
As of today, there have been funerals or memorials for 61 of the 77 dead. Most are attended by at least one high-ranking member of the government.
The ocean of flowers that was placed at many memorial locations, particularly downtown Oslo, is starting to be collected. Cards, books and related things are to be stored by the national archives - the sort of thing that might eventually be used in a permanent memorial.
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/05/flowers-taken-in-as-dead-laid-to-rest/
The police have discovered the identity of a blogger who calls himself "fjordman", to whom the murderer repeatedly referred in his "manifesto". The blogger lives in Norway, had an extremist website until 2005, but claims never to have met the murderer, and has disavowed his actions. (THey had e-mail contact, and 'fjordman' continued to post to right-wing sites after ending his own.) The police continue to question him, and also the murderer, in particular with regard to links with other right-wing fanatics, in Norway and other countries.
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/04/breivik-police-question-fjordman/
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Issues of racism and discrimination continue to be hotly debated in Norway in the aftermath to the Oslo bombings and Utøya shootings that the confessed perpetrator claims were an attack on the country’s multiculturalism.
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/08/calls-to-tackle-racism-after-attacks/
There has also been considerable discussion of these issues in Canada since the murders. A higher proportion of Canadians are immigrants than almost any other developed country, although most are economic immigrants and family reunification rather than refugees such as in Norway. There are tensions, and concerns about assimilation and such, but a steadily growing economy can mask many things.
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jstan
climber
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I searched on the article Skipt posted. It appeared in Front Page Mag at the link immediately below.
http://frontpagemag.com/2011/08/01/something-rotten-in-norway/
Images appearing with the article.
The next two photos were part of a series of changing graphics
Information on the author at the bottom of the piece.
About Daniel Greenfield
Daniel Greenfield, a Shillman Journalism Fellow at the Freedom Center, is a New York writer focusing on radical Islam. He is completing a book on the international challenges America faces in the 21st century.
Then I went to Canadafreepress, cf. link to get more bio
http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/members/1/Greenfield/
First a graphic of the author:
Then a list of his most recent articles.
Most Recent Articles:
Next 65 Columns - >>
Civilization’s End - Aug 9, 2011
The Warrior’s Tale - Aug 8, 2011
Cannibals, Vampires and Terrorists—Oh My! - Aug 7, 2011
Government Amateurs vs Government Professionals - Aug 3, 2011
The Emperor of Debt is Naked - Aug 2, 2011
A Land Without History - Aug 1, 2011
Lynching Herman Cain - Jul 31, 2011
A Clash of Histories - Jul 28, 2011
A New Deal for America - Jul 27, 2011
Debunking 6 Myths About Anders Breivik - Jul 26, 2011
Anders Behring Breivik and the High Cost of Muslim Immigration - Jul 25, 2011
Every Man a Trillionaire - Jul 22, 2011
Edge of the Spending New Frontier - Jul 21, 2011
Outraged Protest Tours - The Tourism Package for Leftists Who Hate Israel - Jul 20, 2011
The End of Afghanistan - Jul 19, 2011
Is Obama Our Gorbachev? - Jul 18, 2011
No Red Lines for the Left - Jul 17, 2011
Sometimes the Bear Gets You - Jul 15, 2011
The Permanent Muslim Civil War - Jul 14, 2011
The Warsaw Ghetto with an Internet Cafe - Jul 13, 2011
Maskophobia, Murderphobia and Bombphobia - Jul 12, 2011
A Disparity in Power is Not a Disparity in Morals - Jul 11, 2011
Government of Sociopaths - Jul 10, 2011
Hell Has a New Resident and Mexico Has a New Hero - Jul 9, 2011
China’s Second Great Leap Forward - Jul 7, 2011
The Jewish Vote - Jul 6, 2011
The Last Refuge of Liberty - Jul 5, 2011
Why Do We Still Celebrate the 4th of July? - Jul 4, 2011
Cowboys vs Superheroes - Jul 3, 2011
Leave Me Alones vs Make It Betters - Jun 29, 2011
Mad Media and Jewish Dogs - Jun 29, 2011
Get Well, Hugo - Jun 28, 2011
The Progressive Reactionarism of the Postmodern Left - Jun 27, 2011
Good News From Libya - Jun 26, 2011
No Muslim Terrorism To See Here - Jun 25, 2011
A Long Walk Through New York - Jun 23, 2011
Technocracy Isn’t Policy - Jun 22, 2011
A Two State Solution for Turkey? - Jun 21, 2011
How Environmentalists Cause War and Repression - Jun 20, 2011
America in a Chinese Mirror - Jun 19, 2011
No Telling Where To Go Next - Jun 18, 2011
The Liberal Apocalypse - Jun 16, 2011
Never Again - Jun 15, 2011
Loughner and the Insane State - Jun 14, 2011
Redistributing Freedom to Tyranny - Jun 12, 2011
The “Muslims First” Foreign Policy - Jun 12, 2011
What Does It All Mean - Jun 11, 2011
Beer, Ham and Muslim Shoes - Jun 10, 2011
The Rise of the Post-American Empires - Jun 8, 2011
A River of Race Runs Through It - Jun 7, 2011
Scandal Nation - Jun 6, 2011
Sink To the Bottom With Me - Jun 5, 2011
Behind the Weinergate - Jun 4, 2011
Socialism’s Army of Occupation - Jun 2, 2011
The Great Error of Israeli Normalization - Jun 1, 2011
Immemorial - May 31, 2011
Will Islam Destroy Itself? - May 30, 2011
A Day at the Races - May 29, 2011
An Enemy We Dare Not Name - May 28, 2011
Failed State Colonization - The Greatest Threat of Our Time - May 26, 2011
Scarecrow Empires and Broken Alliances - May 25, 2011
How the Left Went Wrong on Islam - May 24, 2011
Three Cheers for Terroristine - May 23, 2011
End of the World - May 22, 2011
Peace In Our Weekend - May 20, 2011
Edit:
Please note the text on the Coulter graphic
"Be among the first......"
I think evolutionary psychologists should make a study of our right wing. It will show the value of and make the future of this new discipline.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Thanks, John - this seems to pretty much confirm the hypothesis that Greenfield is little more than an incendiary extremist, peddling his particular brand of hate. Perhaps there's some truth to some of what he says, but it's so wrapped in his ideology and agenda as to be of little consequence. No doubt there are a few in Norway, and so many other countries, of similar views. Hopefully none of them will turn their fanatacism into action. One is too many.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Norway police are not yet convinced that Breivik acted alone. There is some evidence that he was seen with what may be accomplices a few days prior and there are questions about how he planned to escape, possibly with assistance.
The search for anyone who knew about the plans or helped Breivik continues. Reports by newspaper Aftenposten suggest that Breivik was seen wearing a “NATO sweater” covered in police markings and with two other men, not thought to be locals, in a grocery store in Kragerø, Telemark, just days before he carried out the attacks. Car monitoring records seen by the newspaper suggest that none of the vehicles registered in Breivik’s names had been driven into Kragerø, suggesting he went there by other means. http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/09/experts-and-hackers-aid-terror-police/
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jstan
climber
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Aug 10, 2011 - 01:41am PT
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Could be John.
Credit for the link, however, is due HFCS. HFCS is kind of a weird character. There is no part of the internet he has not poked into. I think he was the one who clued Klimmer into the back of the moon thing.
:-)
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