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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 24, 2013 - 04:25pm PT
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Yeah, most third world countries dont use those EPA certified Wood Buring Inserts or Stoves. In fact, most old trailer parks in the USA dont either.
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Hoser
climber
vancouver
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Jan 24, 2013 - 04:38pm PT
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right now, with gas prices in the gutter, drilling has slowed to a crawl in the shale gas plays. Everyone is drilling for oil. The joke is if you hit a gas well you will be fired.
There in lies the rub, the cheaper the fuel the less money we will spend to find better fuels. So in reality, if oil could go really high then we could move on.
This is why building pipelines from the oilsands is not a good idea in the name of moving onto a cleaner alternative.
It would involve fewer regulatory hurdles - after all, they'd simply double an existing pipeline on existing rights of way, and increase the amount of tanker traffic through an already heavily used and regulated waterway.
It still crosses two provinces which makes it a federal gig, so still quite a few hurdles, less than keystone but more than within a single province
I'll say it for the thousandth time. An American uses something like thirty times more resources than your typical third world citizen. So when you talk about our 0.9% population growth, the effect is much higher. We are a little country, 5% of the world's population, and use 25% of the world's oil.
And another reason why we dont need the rest of the world trying to catch up, bottom line as BASE said, stop using it....if they lose customers...
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Hoser
climber
vancouver
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Jan 24, 2013 - 04:41pm PT
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Essentially to point out that central North America is rapidly producing more oil and gas,
Which is why they want to sell to Asia, to get at the world price of oil, right now they have to sell it cheaper in the North American oil market, they are losing billions and billions
Funny that what within a decade we completely blew out the notion of peak oil, we are set for centuries...so we really do need to figure out a way to move on
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Jan 24, 2013 - 05:53pm PT
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Just for clarification,when i say burning firewood is one of the cleaner methods of heating,it is ,when you burn in a modern woodstove with a reburning catalyst system .
It does matter where you live also.JE you live in Fresno,a close friend lived in Selma for years ,i remember him saying that smoke from his woodstove could linger for days,depending on weather systems.He also said smog could form in the valley and take some time to move over the sierra.Is this correct?
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Jan 24, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
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Well thanks DMT,I have only been through there a couple times back in the early 80s.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jan 25, 2013 - 12:40pm PT
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Thanks Wilbeer for the edumacation that woodstoves are teh cleanest stuff out there. As Reagan announced and clarified years earlier, "trees are the largest producer of methane in the world". So I suppose if we cut them all down and burn them the world will be a much better place.
As far as your comment: "i have not seen fracknation,so i cannot comment on Dr Chu" Fracknation is a movie which has not come out, whereas Dr Chu has been the Secretary of Energy for over 4 years. I have this program on my computer called Google, I use it research things. Click here to learn more. http://bit.ly/JGvtyo
Hope that helps, you can enter "Who is Dr Steven Chu" to get more info.
You might want to clue the EPA in on the point you make on how clean woodstoves are, those idiots have it totally wrong as their chart shows.
Next, increasing the price of oil has been a goal of this administration. Gasoline for autos has doubled in the first 4 years of the Obama administration. However, despite what is noted upthread - this natural gas being fracked isn't so much competing with oil as with coal. The major use is production of electricity. Coal is the leading way we get electrical power and the numbers are shocking and staggering. A quick search of "clean coal" as an energy source should dissuade you that burning coal is a good thing on any level.
So if you want to stop the increased production of natural gas via fracking, have at it. But realize that what you will be getting then in place of natural gas for electricity production, is so much worse. As far as exporting it via liquefaction, have at it I'd say. It will increase the price and help reduce consumption (although the elasticity models of power don't show it to be significant, power is price elastic).
Unless we all go to those beautiful EPA certified clean burning woodstoves and can manage to make all those nasty "methane producing trees" to disappear off the planet.
BTW Wilbeer, the "solution to pollution" comment started out as twisted humor. That it has been advocated by academia now is a scary thought.
Wilbeer said: "John,firstly,burning firewood is one of the cleaner ways to heat.Yes ,the particulate goes in to the atmosphere,there it combines with a variety of compounds and settles out through gravity,in effect cleaning our atmos phere.The same thing is said of forrest fires.As a geology prof once said"a solution to pollution is dilution".Not only does firewood do that ,it is carbon neutral,burning methane is not."
Oh, as far as your attempt to slam me for being a "republican", I'd rather be a republican than a dumbass any day. I may be a dumbass but sorry to inform you I am not a republican.
I do have a dog in the fight I'll share. I've invested a shitload of money into natural gas related companies and I suggest you look at doing the same. If you are interested in my thoughts on that, I'd be fine with sharing them but the short version is that because natural gas is so damned cheap right now, I've concentrated on companies that have large proven reserves. One hickup in the middle east and gas will go crazy due to speculation. Long term it's a no-brainer winner as well, as natural gas (and again, it's prime use will be electricity production) is one of the healthiest of our energy sources, there will be additional uses found and exploited as time goes on (car and truck conversion, new pipelines installed etc etc) and useage will increase thus driving up prices again. The Obama administration is trying to make coal go away and encourage that it go over to China. Talking long term on Natural Gas, it's a winner. Does fracking suck? Yes. Sorry, it causes environmental issues it really does. We know that. Is it a better choice than coal? Yes. Hands down no question. Dr Chu was a breath of fresh air after 8 years of Bush and an excellent choice by President Obama. With him controlling the game, I don't feel I need to micro manage the issue and that the peoples interest isn't being looked after, and you might consider that idea as well.
In either case, wish you well.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jan 25, 2013 - 01:11pm PT
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Damn. I just wrote a tome worthy of a Nobel Prize and my computer just whacked it into oblivion. I hate laptops.
Couchmaster, I know those companies inside out, and I don't have the balls to buy them. The supply end of the equation is going to be pretty cyclic. You can play the cycles, though. PM me is you want to yack about them.
I'm a libertarian Democrat, so don't try talking politics. I'll discuss policy, but not politics, other than to say that most Republicans have some sort of disease. They wash their hair and it always has sh#t in it.
:)
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Jan 25, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
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Couch,when we say fine particulate matter,Do you know what that is?Do you know what oil or ngas put in the air?Do you know what carbon neutrality means?Please educate me on that.
Particulates from wood burning, are far less toxic than carbon monoxides and unburned petrochemicals left behind from burning fossil fuels,while the fossil fuels have far less particulate in amounts,the matter they do leave behind is far more toxic.There are no perfect fuels and or energies ,but some are much" greener" than others[chemically speaking].
It is somewhat very similar of a discussion between diesel exhaust and gasoline exhaust,yeah the diesel has way more particulate[and looks dirty],but the gasoline exhaust has way more harmful chemicals.
I am sure you can pick this apart to.
And by the way in your previous "movie review" ,i would like to know how saying people against fracking are actually covertly with Putin .You are right ,thats not demonizing anybody.
Where did i say i dont know who Dr, Chu is?From your text,i took it as he had said something in the movie[which i have not seen,and all my previous comments were about the"review" of it]
Do you know where methane from trees comes from?It is not from burning them.
"Solution to Polution is Dilution" was said to me 35 years ago by a then old professor,its hardly new to academia and i believe its origins are from industry.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jan 25, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
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There is nothing neutral over Carbon. We have to actually remove it from the atmosphere, because we have already crossed at least part of the tipping point by spewing almost all of your oil into the atmosphere already. We are burning coal right and left.
Biofuels or anything you burn is bad. Use natural gas or propane if you can.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Jan 25, 2013 - 01:49pm PT
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"There is nothing neutral over carbon"
Base with great respect,How?
Wood ,biofuels,start their life as plants,taking co2 out of the atmosphere ,replenishing o2.Their cycle is just that.There are huge arguments against fossil fuels for this very reason.No fossil fuels can do this,this is the premise of carbon neutrality.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 25, 2013 - 02:00pm PT
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It does matter where you live also.JE you live in Fresno,a close friend lived in Selma for years ,i remember him saying that smoke from his woodstove could linger for days,depending on weather systems.He also said smog could form in the valley and take some time to move over the sierra.Is this correct?
DMT answered the question technically accurately, though as someone who spent nine years in the LA area, what constitutes "bad air" and what feels like "bad air" differ. Nonetheless, the San Joaquin Valley is one huge basin with prevailing winds that carry air -- and everything in it -- to the base of the Sierra and Tehachapi mountains. During the winter, a thermal inversion keeps that air stagnant, and particulate matter becomes a real health hazard.
Now as for Selma . . . my wife is from Selma, so I have an extremely high opinion of Selma natives. Your friend must have been outstanding.
John
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Jan 25, 2013 - 02:07pm PT
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John,thanks for that. My freind from Selma was Norm Gong Guy,he worked with me for 20+ years.He passed away from pc 4+ years ago.So i too have high regards for Selma. Terence
and yes he was an outstanding person.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Jan 25, 2013 - 02:28pm PT
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Biofuels or anything you burn is bad. Use natural gas or propane if you can.
Please explain?
TE
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 25, 2013 - 02:45pm PT
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I'll ask my wife if she knew Norman. There was a Gong Guy in her class at Selma High who died in a fire while she was in high school. I wonder if they were related.
I have not eaten at Rodolfo's, DMT, but it's now on my list.
John
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Jan 25, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
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John,He would have been 54, as i am,many sisters and brothers,his dad ran a asian food store in Selma.A very humor filled person,a masters in biophysics from the University of Rochester,[what brought him here]with undergraduate studies at Berkeley.A 25 year carpenter and superb craftsman.
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Hoser
climber
vancouver
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Jan 25, 2013 - 03:43pm PT
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Please explain?
TE
Just look at what each fuel pumps into the atmosphere and then decide which is the best one, for now. So that we dont head past the amount of what we can put into the atmosphere in order to not surpass the 2c limit of warming.
Thats something like 565 giga tons more, which works out to about 16 years at the current rate with a 3% increase per year.
So if we can get into LNG we may be able to lengthen that time to transition to something else and start conserving
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Casper the Friendly Ghost Town!
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Not sure if this point was covered or not. It's well-known (that's punny!)that many oil and gas wells are not properly sealed when they are shut-in or abandoned. Operators are supposed to plug certain know zones where groundwater resides. So, if that is at 5,000 ft. they need to cement or shove bentonite down to those zones in the casing to prevent transmission of fluids in the event the casing erodes or is compromised.
Not sure of the frequency, but I know it happens more than we realize from well inspectors BLM and actual oil and gas personnel that have done this practice. A favorite practice to seal wells is just to plug the first several feet of the top of the well/casing and call it good and not even plug the zones where groundwater is found. Once the casing erodes and fills up to the groundwater zones, contamination is inevitable.
I wouldn't count on being able to use groundwater in areas of oil and gas development within 50-100yrs. after drilling began, give or take.
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