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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Apr 19, 2011 - 10:58am PT
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HG: I assume you haven't read Three Cups of Deceit (and I don't mean skimmed, but really read).
There's a tone of "maybe Mortenson made a few mistakes, but he's a great guy doing such great stuff" in some posts that is predicated on setting up and then belittling straw-men charges (e.g., he just wasn't good at keeping records, or maybe he bragged about his climbing background but so what?). Poor record keeping is by no means the only or the most serious charge. (Although, when "poor record keeping" means spending hundreds of thousands of $$$ for years with no documentation, that does become a serious charge.)
If anyone reads and comprehends Three Cups of Deceit, I think their support for Mortenson will evaporate (OK, his mother, etc. doesn't count). If I'm wrong about that, well, then some people are even more gullible than I suppose.
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raymond phule
climber
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Apr 19, 2011 - 11:09am PT
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For another - IF there are these improprieties that are being claimed
But GM has already admitted to many of the improprieties.
I am curious about what is going to happen with the claims in regard to the stories from Pakistan. GM admitted that the stories in his book where not factual but his latest version of these stories is still quite different from what Jon Krakauer claims is the truth. Did GM lie in his interview with outside magazine?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 19, 2011 - 11:30am PT
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It's nearly impossible for a public figure in the US to successfully sue the news media for defamation.
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raymond phule
climber
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Apr 19, 2011 - 11:46am PT
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If Mortensen has been defamed by 60 Minutes, he can sue them. We await the action of his attorneys.
I believe the Krakauer article is much more interesting than the 60 minutes show because it has much more details.
Much of the things said in the program is also clearly true.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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Apr 19, 2011 - 12:07pm PT
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blahblah - Correct, I have not downloaded the article. I'm actually in the Grand Canyon(online, fer christs's sake...) and have been checking into my emails, favorite haunts and doing a little business work(yesterday I was contacted by quite a nice website that will be using some of the images I took while visiting Jerome, AZ, and spent my battery time sending full res images, for example. AND in our conversations, the woman has said they would like to also do a story on my winter southwest road trip! woohoo).
So.... I have picked and chosen my uses for internet time.
People are not going to change my position on this scenario. Sorry - I have seen way to many hatchet jobs, where statements are made, with purported truths that aren't really. An example would be "personal jet use." It SOUNDS like an unnecesary luxury. Yet it is actually, in many case, a realistic requirement.
If GM has done wrong, let the COURTS try him and come to a verdict. If the CAI has not upheld the requirement for their 501(c) 3 status, that too will be decided, and the status revoked. If the financials are not in order, the IRS will deal with it, and you can be sure it will be hesdline news. Anyone who thinks the US Gov isn't fully aware of GM and the minutiae of his life.... may be should ask where the hell all that money for Homeland Security goes, if it isn't looking into the dealings of a person moving money around the Middle East.
Until then, I have not seen anything that is a proven fact of wrongdoing.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Apr 19, 2011 - 12:14pm PT
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three cups of deceit
Maybe it was poppy tea.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Apr 19, 2011 - 12:16pm PT
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Radical nailed it.
Remarkable thread...
Religious responses from folks who are not religious.
If Mortenson set up a kool-aide stand here on Supertopo and started selling kool-aide mixed with cyanide, he'd have a lot of takers. Maybe even more than Jim Jones.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Apr 19, 2011 - 12:22pm PT
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Those of you trying to absolve Mortenson of all blame might have an easier time if you were actually to read Krakauer's piece so that you could understand the charges and the evidence.
As it is, this thread has a surreal quality as folks who've decided that Mortenson is a good guy and his project wonderful invent possible lame accusations and then offer fantasy rebuttals.
I guess maybe it has some therapeutic value, but it sure as hell doesn't do anything else. I know this is =the internet, but still, this is a topic that actually touches the larger mountaineering community, so it is one that deserves a bit more intellectual effort than the sort of stuff that goes on in the usual politard threads.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Apr 19, 2011 - 12:33pm PT
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Having read the long article by Krakauer (http://byliner.com/);, I agree with klk. Initially, I thought the attacks on Mortenson were just some sort of media distortion, but what Krakauer details is something quite different. If what JK writes is true, Mortenson benefited financially MUCH more than legally permitted. He took advantage of donors to CAI, plus the proceeds from thousands of school programs which gave money to benefit kids.
Its not a matter of building savings for CAI in the future. According to Krakauer, Mortenson pocketed millions of dollars and used CAI funds to promote his own talks. He's in huge trouble with the IRS and has destroyed CAI's integrity. Its a very sad situation. I hope CAI can somehow recover and continue its mission. This story is just beginning as far as public knowledge of what really has been going on.
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Gene
climber
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Apr 19, 2011 - 01:12pm PT
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Connect the dots:
Peace and Hope Begin With Education: One Child At A Time
Central Asia Institute’s Domestic Education Program was established to promote awareness of the importance of primary education, literacy, and cross-cultural understanding about the remote regions of northern Pakistan and Afghanistan. We do this through public events, global outreach and in the USA, our books Three Cups of Tea and Stones into Schools, and our Pennies for Peace Program. https://www.ikat.org/events/
(Central Asia Institute’s website)
Note “our books” in above quote. CAI does not share in the revenue from GM’s books.
It may surprise many people who have donated money to CAI, as it surprised me, to learn that CAI receives none of the proceeds from any of Mortenson’s books. All of the royalties from Three Cups of Tea are split equally by Mortenson and David Relin. All of the royalties from his other books are paid to Mortenson alone. John Krakauer, Three Cups of Deceit
The following is from Central Asia Institute IRS Form 990, Page 29
(D) DESCRIPTION OF TRANSACTION: THE ORGANIZATION HAS AN ECONOMIC INTEREST IN A BOOK WRITTEN BY THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, GREG MORTENSON, WHICH IS WRITTEN IN REGARDS TO HIS JOURNEYS IN AFGHANISTAN AND PAKISTAN WHILE PURSUING THE ORGANIZATION’S MISSION. DURING THE FISCAL YEAR ENDED SEPTEMBER 30, 2009, THE ORGANIZATION PAID $1,729,542 FOR BOOK-RELATED EXPENSES ASSOCIATED WITH OUTREACH AND EDUCATION. https://www.ikat.org/wp-includes/documents/Financials/990FYE9-30-09.pdf
Note CAI’s claim of “economic interest” and “$1,729,542 for book-related expenses…”
CAI = GM and that’s wrong.
EDIT:
$4,607,300 in CAI expenses described as:
DOMESTIC OUTREACH AND EDUCATION, LECTURES AND GUEST APPEARANCES ACROSS THE UNITED STATES TELLING CENTRAL ASIA INSTITUTES STORY AND THE PLIGHT OF CHILDREN IN PAKISTAN AND AFGHANISTAN. https://www.ikat.org/wp-includes/documents/Financials/990FYE9-30-09.pdf
GM doesn’t share speaking fees with CAI.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Apr 19, 2011 - 01:29pm PT
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DMT, no, at least not to me. Read the Krakauer piece. What it alleges, and with what looks like fairly good evidence, is that GM falsified his kidnapping and publicly identified folks who had actually been his benefactors as Taliban kidnappers. Then the book sold jillions of copies and he promoted the story round the world.
Imagine if someone from another country visited the Sierra, you took them around and showed them all the locals only stuff. Then they went home and wrote a book that named you and yr friends as terrorists, claimed you had kidnapped them and held them hostage, and that they were starting acharity to go back to the Sierra and build the schools that ignorant terrorist rednecks like DMT wouldn't build for their own children. Then they flew round the world giving talks and seminars in which they kept repeating the story and using it to raise dough for their charity and for more book tours.
I can understand the need for a certain percentage of off-the-books money work in places where cash payments are regularly used in policy to facilitate everything from travel to labor. And I can understand a bit of lily-gilding-- even self-conscious, deliberate polishing --in buffing a story for the mass market and potential donors. I can even understand the dangerous amateurism that led so many of the initial supporters and adminisitrators to publicly resign. I don't approve of it, it's clearly incompetent or worse, but it's understandable.
The slander of Mansur and others is to me a genuinely serious charge and one that has repercussions far beyond this case. What is this going to do to other, future efforts to travel and do charitable work in the area? How do you think other climbers are likely to get treated now once they're in the backcountry? That region is a tinderbox, and it looks as if GM tossed in a match and a can of gasoline in the belief that he needed a campfire.
I don't have the grounds for questioning his motivations. That, or his climbing resume or his sloppy account, just aren't the issue.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Apr 19, 2011 - 01:49pm PT
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DMT,
klk beat me to it, but no, you don't have the bold strokes. At all.
For example, I still haven't seen Mortenson's supporters explain why Mortenson caused CAI to buy Three Cups of Tea at retail rather than wholesale prices.
The charge: this caused Mortenson to receive higher royalty rates, and counts toward bestseller lists. (Also, Mortenson went nuts when Three Cups fell from No. 1 and ordered massive purchases by CPI to try regain top spot.)
The response: The deafening sound of silence.
Only reason I'm posting this is because DMT just did exactly what I (and others) have caught Mortenson's defenders doing: mischaracterizing the allegations and then dismissing them. That is a BS tactic and we're on to it.
(By the way, Mortensen causing CAI to buy his books at all seems like huge conflict to me, but perhaps that's defensible, I don't know. The specific charge is the retail rather than wholesale purchases.)
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Apr 19, 2011 - 02:00pm PT
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^ ^ ^
Ha ha, translated from DMT-ese to English: "I have no idea what the issues are surrounding this topic, and don't know why other people seem to be interested in it, so I guess this is a "religious" issue."
OK I'm out (as far as busting DMT's balls on this.)
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Apr 19, 2011 - 02:24pm PT
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@DMT-- i didnt really care about 3 Cups either. didnt care for the book for a lot of different reasons, but was happy to see someone doing some decent charitable work in a a region that needs it. and i wish this wasn't a big deal, but it is. i realized that yesterday in the airport when i walked past one of the TVS and folks were watching the CNN segment (long segment, too), with interviews of Mansur and a really unhappy Peter Bergen. Bergen is a serious guy, and if he thinks this is a policy disaster for the region, then yeah, I'm going to listen. Then I walk down the hall a bit and there's this classic business travelers-- the two overstuffed rolling pieces, balding, beer belly, loafers-slacks-sport -coat-lurking-the-head-of-the-boarding-line --talking on his blackberry and saying, "Yeah, I heard and it's funny 'cuz I'd just bought the book in the airport."
This has taken me by surprise, frankly, but I can already see the fallout at every talk and fundraiser I'm involved in for the next several years. It's going to come up at a very bad time, given the critical stage we're at with fundraising and charitable giving. Really sucks.
@blahblahblah-- I don't repeat the charges that GM went out and bought stacks of the books in retail when it was in danger of dropping out of first place on the NYT list, because as best as I could tell, the sourcing for that claim is a single anonymous "friend" of GM's. That sort of sourcing is controversial-- but often justified --in journalism, but it does push the envelope a bit and especially in this context. I'm not comfortable with repeating that even as a charge w/o a better familiarity with the evidence. It isn't that I don't trust JK's judgment or integrity on such things, but I'm not comfrotable with the general practice on this sort of matter.
So far as the general practice of CAI buying the book at retail, that happens all the time, esp. with autobiography and memoir. WHen Newt Gingrich published his big book, his buddies and campaign contributors bought jillions of copies, apparently the only folks who did. That in and of itself is just not an unusual occurrence, although I can't speak to the tax code implications.
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MH2
climber
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Apr 19, 2011 - 02:29pm PT
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"The quip is not worth the explanation."
Sounds like a job for me:
Believers/Nonbelievers <[great distance]> firsthand knowledge
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Apr 19, 2011 - 02:48pm PT
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Dingus doesn't really care about Greg M. he is too busy trying to sort through his confusion of impassioned speech and religious fervor.
Next he will be posting pics of dead coyotes on fences and proselytizing us about how it demonstrates clearly what is really wrong with California...
Or posting long-winded diatribes about the brilliant 4-hour conversation he had with his seatmate and how most people wouldn't be able to have a conversation like that.
Or about how hot and bothered he gets about people going through his trash looking for things to recycle.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 19, 2011 - 03:08pm PT
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This type of thing underminds my trust in ANY institution abroad which REALLY sucks because the third world is in SUCH need of assistance.
It can be a lot cheaper to do things there but it's true that there's a culture of corruption in many places.
When I was in India, I raised some money from friends for a series of Cataract camps a Swami I met was sponsoring in his ashram under construction. They, in collaboration with the Lion's club in India, arranged for free Cataract Surgery with Lenses and Medicine plus free food and accommodations during the process. I witnessed the Swami living humble and simple and took a 4 1/2 hour bus ride to witness the first stage of the next camp. The Ashram's side took less than $500 to make a camp possible for up to 80 people. That's a lot of charity bang for the buck (Approx half for food and half contribution to the medical team)
Give them a decade and a few million dollars and the chance for corruption is possible but it depends on the personalities. The parent ashram fed every person in the village I was staying in three meals a day, every day, with no spiritual pressure added, and there was no donation box to be seen and no money talk. The Master of the Ashram lived in a room that would be the equivalent of a $3 hotel room in town, and simplicity was a big value.
Peace
Karl
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Gal
Trad climber
a semi lucid consciousness
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Apr 19, 2011 - 03:29pm PT
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Karl, that sounds pretty amazing. You got to see proof of people doing good for others without having to have huge personal gain.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Apr 19, 2011 - 04:23pm PT
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I have tried three times to look at the Krakauer document linked above. My machine just chokes and gives me a big blank page. Can someone possibly send it to me in some other fashion? As I can't see it, I can't tell if that is even possible. Thanks much.
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