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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Mar 12, 2011 - 06:07pm PT
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They would likely die within seconds.
What would be the most immediate cause, or causes, of this? Esp if it were seconds to an hour, do you know?
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 12, 2011 - 06:07pm PT
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TOKYO (Nikkei)--The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA) said Saturday afternoon the explosion at the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant could only have been caused by a meltdown of the reactor core. Again, this is incorrect... It has already been reported that the explosion was caused by a pump, and that the reactor vessel was not involved in this explosion.
Even this, from the same article you posted shows that:
"The walls of the building containing the reactor were destroyed, meaning that the metal container encasing the reactor did not explode,"
And, AGAIN, a meltdown is next to impossible unless the reactor is critical, and with all rods in, it is not. 'All rods in' has been verified to be the case.
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Brandon-
climber
Done With Tobacco
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Mar 12, 2011 - 06:08pm PT
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HFCS, I understand the desire for a scientific discussion of nuclear energy and it's nuances.
This isn't the place. Please start a separate thread to discuss it.
I for one, am grieving for those who lost their lives.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Mar 12, 2011 - 06:09pm PT
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Brandon, I understand.
Start one for THAT then if you would like.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 12, 2011 - 06:11pm PT
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HFC... From what I understand, being exposed to that amount of energy coming from the bundle would ionize most of your nervous system in an instant.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 12, 2011 - 06:13pm PT
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People need to remember that this quake was of such magnitide that it may have exceeded the Design Basis Event for the reactors.
I am not anti-nuclear, but a statement like this only further highlights significant problems with all existing light water designs and should give China serious pause in its plans. The current designs being built are very evolutionary from previous generations and what's needed is a cut from the past to wholly new designs capable of shutting down automatically even in situations like this. Probably that's going to require using arrays of mini-nukes instead of larger, more structurally vulnerable units like these.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Mar 12, 2011 - 06:15pm PT
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Brandon,
Relax. Loosen up. If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen. Bottom line: In any public discourse like this sooner or later what comes around is a wingnut packing bullsh#t. Is it better not to call the bullshit when you see it or read it? No. So there it is. The reason for impugning bullshit if not the bullshitter when you see it. It's justifiable. Sure, it is a dirty job but somebody has to do it. Else the bullshit might stand. Not good.
If it's too much to deal with, go elsewhere.
This is a goos point. EVERYBODY here is sympathethic to the Japanese people. But do realize that we Califonians are probably next. It would be foolish to not look at this and prepare. We are used to quakes just like the Japs are. But this quake is an eye-opener.
We have to learn. And we need to help. Fortunately, the Japs are pretty well resourced like us. And we have Naval assets on the way to help out.
That wall of water was the killer. So many people underestimate the power of the ocean. That is what killed so many people. It IS sad. But there was nothing they could do. It was a natural disaster. Doesn't make it less sorrowful or deadly, it just was.
It sucks. And it will happen to us...sooner than later.
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Brandon-
climber
Done With Tobacco
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Mar 12, 2011 - 06:17pm PT
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Blue, I don't disagree. I just think it should be in a separate thread, which I have started.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Mar 12, 2011 - 06:28pm PT
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That wall of water was the killer.
There were a couple of things that us left coasters could take away from this that I saw in the first video and stills from the event.
The first vid I saw was of the buildings in Tokyo swaying violently. The thing that struck me was not that the buildings stood, most in LA would probably structurally withstand that kind of shake. The interesting thing was the lack of debris in the street. None of the fascia fell off the buildings. That's something I don't think would happen here. While our building codes have addressed the overall structural integrity of the structures, I'm a bit worried that the details on the outer skin may be driven more by western architectural sensibilities than practicality for living on the rim of fire.
There's a reason modern Japanese buildings are aesthetically plain. We may do well to pay attention.
The other was a still of down town Sendai right after. The main drag was filled ten feet high with the ground up debris from the tsunami, but the buildings on either side were in eerily pristine shape.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Mar 12, 2011 - 06:33pm PT
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Start one for THAT then if you would like.
Sorry for the confusion. I meant start a new thread for the grieving if you need to.
Here I appreciate rAdam's input. TGT's too. Etc. Anything (that's not bs, that is) relating to the Japanese earthquake.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Mar 12, 2011 - 06:37pm PT
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Wendell, the tsunami went through farming areas first apparently, picking up scattered debris along the way.
It would be way worse here...And we should think about that. Especially L.A.
The Sf Bay Area is buffered pretty well. Santa Cruz, Half Moon Bay, and Pacifica localities would get decimated. But the inner Bay would prolly fair pretty well. (I Hope).
L.A. has no Mtns between it an the coast, no? That could be rough.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Mar 12, 2011 - 06:41pm PT
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Speaking of buffered...
It was interesting to note how the Sea of Japan and Korea, being on the West Side of the islands, were spared any tsunami effects.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Mar 12, 2011 - 06:43pm PT
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TOKYO (Nikkei)--The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA) said Saturday afternoon the explosion at the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant could only have been caused by a meltdown of the reactor core.
Again, this is incorrect... It has already been reported that the explosion was caused by a pump, and that the reactor vessel was not involved in this explosion.
Even this, from the same article you posted shows that:
"The walls of the building containing the reactor were destroyed, meaning that the metal container encasing the reactor did not explode,"
And, AGAIN, a meltdown is next to impossible unless the reactor is critical, and with all rods in, it is not. 'All rods in' has been verified to be the case.
rrradam,
You aren't argueing with me. This is from The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA) as reported by the Japanese, Nikkei, in Tokyo.
This was reported Saturday afternoon in Japan. This is more current info.
They are comparing an earlier report to what they know now.
Even with rods all the way in, without the primary cooling, and the redundant back-ups for energy to continue the cooling process, it continues to heat-up. You must know that.
I think I'll listen to NISA, rather than you, thank you.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Mar 12, 2011 - 06:43pm PT
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I don't think there's any geological record of major Tsunami events in the LA basin like there is in the North West. Any big seismic event here is probably going to be shore based.
That being said, there is a big low plain from the harbor area to about the century freeway.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Mar 12, 2011 - 07:02pm PT
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Japan on the Eastern edge of the Eurasian plate, and with the Pacific plate subducting beneath, they clearly experience many more Earthquakes and as a result are far more prepared than we are, even here in SoCal.
They have a highly advanced warning system as demonstrated here . . .
Early Warning System and the Japan Earthquake
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x562442
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQVPfQu50yY
Amazing.
We should too. We have a lot to learn from them.
All the relief effort that we are doing with our military, this is a great and noble use. This is what it should be used for. It's great to see all the ships headed their way to help. This is a great use of our tax dollars. This is what we have a military for, to help people, and our defense, not to kill them.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 12, 2011 - 07:18pm PT
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Brandon-
I'm not here to discuss or defend nuclear energy... What is happening over there, earthquake, tsunami, and especially at the nuke is really fvcking bad!
I'm merely here to try to clear up a lot of misconceptions and misinformation that is out there, and being spread around the net and in the news.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Mar 12, 2011 - 07:27pm PT
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Core of quake-damaged reactor partially melts - 170,000 being evacuated from area
Source: MSNBC
Core of quake-damaged reactor partially melts
Seawater being poured into reactor to cool it; 170,000 being evacuated from area
The core of a nuclear reactor damaged by Friday’s massive earthquake has partially melted, Japan’s nuclear safety agency said Saturday, and the company that runs the plant is pouring seawater into the reactor in an attempt to cool it and prevent it from going critical.
Early Sunday, Japan's nuclear safety agency reported an emergency at a second reactor in the same complex.
The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency said that the cooling system malfunctioned at Unit 3 of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant No. 1. The agency said it was informed of the emergency by Tokyo Electric Co., or TEPCO, the utility that runs the plant.
No further details of the troubles at Unit 3 were immediately available.
Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42044156/ns/world_news-asia-pacific/?GT1=43001
Pull your head out of the sand rrrADAM.
Nice edit on your part.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Mar 12, 2011 - 07:34pm PT
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This certainly is an economic catastrophe for Tokyo Power, but other than perhaps a few Luis Slotins at the plant it will have no effect on human, plant or animal life outside the fence.
Go find us some extraterrestrials Klimmer.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Mar 12, 2011 - 07:38pm PT
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This certainly is an economic catastrophe for Tokyo Power, but other than perhaps a few Luis Slotins at the plant it will have no effect on human, plant or animal life outside the fence.
Go find us some extraterrestrials Klimmer.
Nuclear radioactive fallout and contamination doesn't stop at fences.
You seem to think this is winding down and there is no more danger of anything happening worse.
May I suggest you watch the video with PhD Michio Kaku, regarding the Nuclear Power plants.
I'm not going to quote scripture, but I would repeat: prepare, pray, and please help others as much as we can.
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