Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2010 - 10:23pm PT
|
So um.... without sounding like a prick but.... um.....do you guys have like an extended warranty on this rig?
Quite a turn the D5 Hammer thread took, wasn't it? Crazy.
And good to see you too, Grover!
|
|
Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2010 - 10:35pm PT
|
If you try to pound a 3/8” 5-piece into a hole drilled with a 3/8” HSS bit, you will also have problems. The hole is again too tight and the cone may get stuck. A 25/64” HSS bit is required for proper hole diameter.
Super good point that not many folks probably pay enough attention towards.
25/64 = .390625.
Powers recommends SDS bits to the ANSI B212.15 standard which, for a 3/8" anchor, requires a bit size in the range of .390 to .398.
Most of the cones on a 3/8" powerbolt measure around .400 or so? Maybe to .405.
Got to have some compression, but, too much, ie, from a worn out SDS drill bit, and, you'll overcompress the cone onto the shaft of the bolts. I think that's why folks get "spinners" sometimes (bolts that won't tighten). I've seen powerbolts where the shaft of the bolt was driven right through the cone...
I think the stainless powerbolts are more sensitive to bit size. My thought is bigger is better. If you were going to size up from 25/64 for an HSS bit, what size, smaller than .400, would you pick?
Anyone use HSS bits in their power drills? Experiences? Size bit? I see Bosch sells an SDS adapter but doesn't recommend using standard bits on the impact setting. Not sure if that is because the adapter won't take the impact, or? Comments?
Good stuff.
|
|
Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2010 - 12:18am PT
|
Hey, no worries, Luke! I just wanted to make sure that it was clear what size collet is needed for HSS bits.
For the Hurricane Drill:
A 17/64” collet will accept a 17/64” HSS bit as well as a 1/4” HSS bit.
A 25/64” collet will accept a 25/64” HSS bit, a 3/8” HSS bit, and an SDS bit.
Cool that the batch is scheduled for completion on your birthday. Funny.
Hope all goes well. Right on, Luke!
Aric,
“In an attempt to protect the threads from deforming the end of the shaft is turned down to a smaller diameter, which is a tight fit into a corresponding recess in the striking piece.”
Yeah, I remember that you mentioned this earlier in the thread. Sounds like a good idea.
“There's also a small fillet around the underside of the striking piece, which should help strengthen the joint as well.”
Yeah, that sounds good too, and addresses the stress point at that 90-degree “corner.”
Thanks for the detailed diagram. On the striking piece, I see where the threads end, and that the section to the left of the threads is thicker, and hence stronger. That looks good.
What I was trying to get at with my crude sketch (I should have labeled it more) is that it seems like if the contact point between the end of the drill holder shank and the striking piece is in the same plane as the bottom edge of the flange on the striking piece, then there is a plane of weakness. If the two surfaces are separated, in different planes, it seems like it would be stronger. I dunno… Gut feeling, but I may be totally wrong.
How about this:
The blue lines show planes of weakness. It seems like with version (b.), the structural weakness points are offset into two separate planes, rather than concentrated along one plane, as with version (a.). I thought this might make the striking piece (b.) stronger/more durable in the long run. Does that make sense?
Hey, thanks for the great info, Brian!
“If you were going to size up from 25/64 for an HSS bit, what size, smaller than .400, would you pick?”
Maybe something metric? I dunno. The next step up from 25/64” would be 13/32” but that translates to .406”, which is apparently a hair too big for the 5-piece cone.
I suppose we could just step it up to .410 and “drill” a hole in sandstone with a simple trigger pull. Bet Ron (both of ‘em…) would like that… Heh.
|
|
adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2010 - 11:37am PT
|
If you were going to size up from 25/64 for an HSS bit, what size, smaller than .400, would you pick?
Maybe something metric? I dunno. The next step up from 25/64” would be 13/32” but that translates to .406”, which is apparently a hair too big for the 5-piece cone.
Looking over what's available at McMaster there's a couple options...
25/64" -> 0.3906"
10.00mm -> 0.3937"
X -> 0.3970"
10.20mm -> 0.4016"
Y -> 0.4040"
13/32" -> 0.4063"
Looks like they're all available in HSS, Cobalt and Carbide Tipped.
My chart also has a couple oddball Metric sizes in there as well (9.95, 10.10, 10.15, 10.25, 10.30), but they might be hard to track down.
@Minerals- I follow what you're saying now re: the striking piece. It's easy enough to change if it turns out to be a problem, and I think the main issue would be crack propagation, which the fillet should take care of.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2010 - 11:43am PT
|
You guys sure are having fun here!
|
|
adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2010 - 05:24pm PT
|
Sorry about clogging up a political site with climbing discussions, MH. ;-)
|
|
Luke Malatesta
Big Wall climber
Moab UT
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2011 - 03:57am PT
|
Micro Update:
I did find a company that will sell me 250 of the the non-throttle side grip that fits a mini bike ( think PW-50 size). I did not want to have to buy a set and be stuck with 250 throttle grips. We are playing the pricing game now.
This is the only grip that i have found that fits a 3/4" stock.
I have one of these sittin' in my shop. Hell they even come in different colors... I keep posting as I find out new info.
Proto is still supposed to arrive on 1-14.
Best,
Luke
|
|
HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
|
|
I'll throw my 2bits/100 in here (discounted for the recession).
Grip rotating/slipping?
Motorcycle grip cement. Think durable version of school kids rubber cement. Easily available and cheap enough. Someone mentioned Renthal cement on the first page. Unfortunately then the grip might have to be cut off (destructively) for removal. I've heard that squirting warm water under the grip will loosen the cement but haven't tried it. Going with an off the shelf bike/motorcycle grip is a great idea for replacement. A good quality gel grip is also a good vibration reducer. ProGrip and Renthal are the standard motorcycle brands. ProGrip is cheaper and more common.
In an attempt to protect the threads from deforming the end of the shaft is turned down to a smaller diameter, which is a tight fit into a corresponding recess in the striking piece.
The "tight fit into corresponding recess" is asking for trouble. This will almost certainly swage together permanently under the impact. Ditto the threads if they are tight. Your idea is in the right direction. The diametrical clearance should at least be a loose fit.
Other possibilities: combine loose cut threads (minimize load bearing surface) with a broad (30 - 45 degrees?) conical taper mating surface. Your loctite will hold the striker in.
Or do you mean to never remove the striker? In which case forget what I just said.
As a mechanical engineer I'd be worried about stress risers at all corners. Have a generous radius on all load bearing inside corners and a 45 degree chamfer on all outside corners. Not shown on your drawings.
I imagine you'll be going through 2 or 3 design changes and will need lots of field testers.
I'm surprised how soft the BD hammer head was. Theron is making the D5 hammers about 46 RC, same as your good ball peen hammers. Got another BD to test?
Your striker should be somewhat less (obviously). I'd make all the other impact bearing components at least hammer hard.
For the intended use I don't see what advantages stainless steel has over tool steel except it looks prettier longer.
Lots of Monday Morning quarterbacking from me.
Caveat Emptor: I'm not a rock drilling expert, actually a novice.
Good luck
|
|
adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
|
|
Hey HighTraverse,
Sorry, didn't see you bump the thread...
The "tight fit into corresponding recess" is asking for trouble. This will almost certainly swage together permanently under the impact. Ditto the threads if they are tight. Your idea is in the right direction. The diametrical clearance should at least be a loose fit.
Other possibilities: combine loose cut threads (minimize load bearing surface) with a broad (30 - 45 degrees?) conical taper mating surface. Your loctite will hold the striker in.
Or do you mean to never remove the striker? In which case forget what I just said.
Gotcha. Didn't know which way to go with it, and apparently picked the wrong one. The current design (there's been several iterations as I run into machining/tooling issues) has the end of the shank sporting a 118 degree included angle cone fitting into a corresponding bore in the striking piece. Basically I realized boring the flat bottom was a PITA and leaving the drilled surface was not only easier, but better. On a related note, chances are slim I'd be able to get the threads tight; the threads on the shank are cut on my rather worn lathe and the threads in the striking piece are threadmilled due to my hesitancy to thread a blind hole on a manual lathe (that said, I suppose I did change that end to LH, so cutting them on the lathe isn't a problem, but I already have the threadmill and no internal threading tool...).
As a mechanical engineer I'd be worried about stress risers at all corners. Have a generous radius on all load bearing inside corners and a 45 degree chamfer on all outside corners. Not shown on your drawings.
Sorry about that. I left off all the fillets/chamfers to make the pics more easily understandable by people not accustomed to seeing solid models (read: fewer lines without them). I'm currently using a 0.015" radius fillet on all of the inside corners, but could easily step it up to 0.031" if needed. Bigger than that might be possible if I can track down larger radius inserts. I've never seen CCMT21.53 or 21.54 inserts, but that doesn't mean "they" don't make them. And worst case I recently found a source for CCMW HSS inserts that could be hand ground to a larger radius if needed.
I imagine you'll be going through 2 or 3 design changes and will need lots of field testers.
Actually at the moment this is only a design exercise for me, and Minerals is the only planned beta tester (and Luke, if he's interested). Quite simply this drill thing is Luke's baby and I don't want to interfere with him covering his costs with the run of Hurricanes (he's fronting quite a bit of money to make this happen), so I have no intention of taking this to production until he's square.
I'm surprised how soft the BD hammer head was. Theron is making the D5 hammers about 46 RC, same as your good ball peen hammers. Got another BD to test?
Unfortunately, no. But if anyone here happens to be around Philadelphia, PA and willing to let me do a hardness test on their hammer I have a tasty homebrew Russian Imperial Stout on tap for their trouble. :-)
Your striker should be somewhat less (obviously). I'd make all the other impact bearing components at least hammer hard. For the intended use I don't see what advantages stainless steel has over tool steel except it looks prettier longer.
That's the plan. In fact, I've changed the spec to 1144 steel (Stressproof) as it seems to me a carburizing steel would be well suited for this sort of application (hard shell, ductile core). And seeing as ER collets aren't available in stainless anyway, I don't see the point in incurring the cost of doing the rest of it that way.
Lots of Monday Morning quarterbacking from me.
Caveat Emptor: I'm not a rock drilling expert, actually a novice.
No worries as far as I'm concerned. While mechanically minded, my expertise lies more with the manufacturing end of things so your input is greatly appreciated. :-)
Which reminds me... I've owed MOsucks an email regarding material selection for ages. Damn holidays getting in the way of things. Sorry Andrew!
|
|
Luke Malatesta
Big Wall climber
Moab UT
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 6, 2011 - 11:18pm PT
|
Thanks Aric! I would love to try out the Proto!
So for what has been going on here....
Grips:
I found 22 Grips that were used on the original Hurricanes. There are no more available due to the Original Manuf. company having " enviromental issues" ( I later found out that they had a flood in their plant and lost everything). I still contacted them and am waiting on some samples and a quote...They may be red for this run.
Still waiting on the quote for the Mini bike grips..So @ least there may be a couple of options.....We will go with the one that feels the best as I think that the pricing will be close.
Sucks that most Moto bikes use a larger grip...we would have a ton of options then!
Collets:
I have a little more time to figure out where to get the best price. I am going to start with 100 25/64" that will be included. I have not been able to find them cheaper than $11 or so each. If anyone comes across any out there for a better price, post it up here or shoot me a message.
Wrenchs:
I think we will be going with a stamped wrench. the outfit I have been working with can do the doublended design I want.... which is:
Wrench "A" : will be a 7/8 closed end and a 7/8" open end.
This one will be only used for the D5 drill
Wrench "B" : will have a 9/16" open end and a 1/2" open end
This can be used on the drill as well as for most bolts out there.
Both will be 5 1/2"-6" long with a hole punched for a retaining cord/cable
We will be bumping up the thickness of both...Hopefully this will eliminate any stress cracks. Working on figuring out what will work best for being both light and for the torque with the bolts.
The specified torque for a 1/2" 5-piece is 45 ft/lbs i think...thats 90ft/lbs on a 6" wrench.......
As far as the steel type for the drill, I quoted a few different materials (4130, 4340?, 17-4, and grade 5 Titanium) just to check out the pricing.
Other than the titanium, the stainless was only a hair bit more than the 4-series steel...I think me and the machinist were both supprised @ this.
I decided to go with the 17-4 because it has been proven to work for sure, less prone to corrosion (maybe the canyoneers would like this?), and the price was right.
The proto went to heat treating today....things are still moving forward.
Thanks everyone!
Luke
PS: Aric, check your e-mail...had a couple of questions
Edit: I'll check into the glue for sure....seems like moto glue would work quite well...I have a bunch that I have collected over the years in my shop. Thanks guys
|
|
adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
|
|
And seeing as ER collets aren't available in stainless anyway…
Hmmmm.
The DA series collets (Hurricane) are stainless, correct?
I've never noticed stainless DA collets... I'll do some digging and report back.
-a.
|
|
adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
|
|
Minerals said:
Yeah, I missed the bump too.
Only reason I caught it was I was standing in Home Depot looking at the SDS shank drill bits (to see how hard it would be to machine an SDS-to-ER16 adapter) and had to look up what size drill you spec'd for typical bolts. Was quite surprised to see a bump I had missed, as I had been checking back daily.
@Luke- was this the email from Sunday? I'm still getting caught up with December email, but will respond to that one tomorrow. And I'll absolutely send you one to play with; sorry for not offering earlier. FWIW I've been making 3 from the outset, with one slated for you regardless. :-)
-a.
|
|
Luke Malatesta
Big Wall climber
Moab UT
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 7, 2011 - 12:26am PT
|
Aric,
I think it was the one I sent Sunday...Sounds sweet man. Looking forward to seeing it.
Best,
Luke
|
|
Luke Malatesta
Big Wall climber
Moab UT
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 7, 2011 - 02:53pm PT
|
Proto Update:
The shop sent me a couple shots of the proto before it went to heat treating, Thought I would share them.
and another....
Should be here in a week!
Luke
|
|
deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
|
|
bee-oot-tee-ful
|
|
Luke Malatesta
Big Wall climber
Moab UT
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 7, 2011 - 03:07pm PT
|
Deuce,
I am sure you have seen few of these in your day!
Luke
|
|
mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
|
|
That looks really nice Luke!
B/T yours and Arics work, we will be set on drills for generations.
Mucci
|
|
HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
|
|
17-4 is a GREAT choice if the price is right.
Well done.
|
|
Luke Malatesta
Big Wall climber
Moab UT
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 7, 2011 - 09:42pm PT
|
Thanks guys!...moving right along..
Luke
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!