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apogee
climber
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Jan 25, 2010 - 12:53pm PT
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"Good thing we have a Supreme Court that protects liberty--we won't have that for much longer if Democrats hold on the presidency."
Jeebus, where do these Repugnuts come from, anyway?
You guys like everything nice and simple, doncha? Everything's black & white, right? You're with us or you're against us, right?
Setting the question of whether corporations or unions have an equal voice to individuals aside, do you believe that corps or unions have an inordinately large influence on the US democratic system or not? If so, how do you propose that this be dealt with? If not, what planet are you from?
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jan 25, 2010 - 12:59pm PT
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yep, this public school teacher is all about greed and keeping the poor in their place
i absolutely believe a man deserves every penny he earns (or even that his father earned)...i hold no grudge against those with money whether they earned it, inherited it, or won it in the lottery...and i don't care how they spend it, either...it's their money!
i believe the same about rich people that i do about other classifications of people (cops, lawyers, priests, doctors, carpenters, truck drivers, teachers, etc.): MOST are good, decent people and should not be disparaged because of the actions of the few indecent
i've worked for corporations and found they willingly give money in exchange for hard work; i've worked for one that didn't pay very well so i asked for more, which they gave me...i was offered work from some that i didn't think paid well so i didn't work for them
sorry, fluoride, if you demand a hand-out...that's not why corporations are created; you should ask the government or a charity or a church
and corporations do give away money:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13815771/
and nobody will answer my question: do you support a law that allows the government to ban books and movies because of their political content? if not, then you can't support mccain-feingold
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jan 25, 2010 - 01:01pm PT
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apogee, i agree that corps and unions have loud voices, but it's up to me to choose whether or not to listen...again, you seem to be admitting your own vote was bought...if not, then why do you think you're the only one who can see through the influence of corps and unions?
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jan 25, 2010 - 01:06pm PT
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I'm not registered with any political party I and voted for Obama. If you think what I wrote is wrong, moronic, whatever, that's fine, but I am not a Republican.
I believe that free speech is an incredibly important right (perhaps the most important one we have) and most be protected with *almost* no exceptions. The problems with special interests having undue influence on the government is very real, but I believe the "cure" of abridging free speech rights is worse than the "disease."
Here's a timely analogy. The 2nd Amendment protects the individual rights to possess weapons. But weapons cause lots of injuries, and so they should be banned, and we should pretend the 2nd Amendment means something other than what it says, right? WRONG, we shouldn't start taking away people's rights just because the exercise of those rights causes some problems--we have to think of better ways to punish the wrongdoers without infringing everyone else's rights.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jan 25, 2010 - 01:14pm PT
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Fluoride writes:
"Jesus F Christ...
Corniss Chopper, you realize the ONLY reason unions exist is because of the horrible inhumane practices of CORPORATIONS??"
The vast majority of American union members work for the Government.
The public employees banded together because they don't feel the Government has their best intrests at heart, and they believe they can speak louder with one unified voice rather than many small ones. As is their God given right, not just as an American, but as a human being.
If public employee unions don't feel the Government is trustworthy, and one large voice is preferable to many small ones, who can blame business for seeing things the same way?
I like the "F" in Jesus F Christ. I was told it Jesus H. Christ, the "H" standing for Harold, as in "Our Father, Harold be thy name".
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MisterE
Social climber
Across Town From Easy Street
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Jan 25, 2010 - 02:23pm PT
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2022? Actually might be pretty close to the date, by some figuring...
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apogee
climber
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Jan 25, 2010 - 02:39pm PT
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Boy, they coulda used one of those people-scoopers at the teaparties last summer.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
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Jan 25, 2010 - 04:01pm PT
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Chaz, spell my handle correctly and I might be able to take you seriously.
You can't even do that. Let alone figure out why unions and corporations work on entirely different scales. One works on the paycheck of members to keep corporations in check from abuses. The other works on pure profit to keep them making greater profit against any obstacles.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jan 25, 2010 - 04:01pm PT
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"Boy, they coulda used one of those people-scoopers at the teaparties last summer."
the truth is finally out...apogee does oppose free speech
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apogee
climber
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Jan 25, 2010 - 04:05pm PT
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Yeah, bookworm, you nailed it. You're so smart.
Edit: By the way, you wouldn't have needed a very large people-scooper at most of those teaparties, since their attendance was so misrepresented by the FauxNews media juggernaut.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jan 25, 2010 - 04:05pm PT
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"One works on the paycheck of members to keep corporations in check from abuses."
do you mean like denying workers the right to vote PRIVATELY on union membership? or using mandatory union dues to make political donations despite the objections of their members?
"The other works on pure profit to keep them making greater profit against any obstacles."
of course, fluoride, you understand that "profit" is simply the leftovers after paying salaries, health coverage, taxes, etc., right? and that "big oil" makes a whopping 8% profit (that's 8 cents profit on every dollar of revenue) and that "big insurance" makes 2% profit?
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jan 25, 2010 - 04:06pm PT
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still waiting on an answer, apogee, do you support a law that allows the government to ban books or movies because of political content?
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apogee
climber
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Jan 25, 2010 - 04:11pm PT
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bookworm, you want to simplify this issue into either you support free speech or you are a fascist. Sorry, I just don't think it's that simple when it comes to the recent SCOTUS decision.
I think there is a problem in our democratic system when for-profit corporations (and labor unions) have a louder voice than individual citizens. You have agreed as much. I don't know what the best solution is, and I do think M-F was not the best answer, but something does need to be done to bring better balance to our democratic system.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 25, 2010 - 04:11pm PT
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Bookworm, aren't you just slick. Look how you wove that logical net and cast it all by yourself! Such a good boy, and my how you just get to the bottom of things; a regular breath of fresh air. But, dear, do be careful with all that deep thinking or you'll shoot your eye out.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jan 25, 2010 - 04:16pm PT
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Fluoride writes:
"Chaz, spell my handle correctly and I might be able to take you seriously."
I'm sorry about that. I went back and edited for correction.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jan 25, 2010 - 04:27pm PT
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who cares how many tea partiers there were...the point is these private citizens took to the streets to protest peacefully...they exercised their right to free speech...you may doubt/deny their influence but elections in ny23 and massachusetts suggest otherwise
the minority can be heard despite corporate influence...remember, coakley went to a dc fundraiser paid for by health industry giants; brown shook hands outside fenway...coakley spent more than brown
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Jan 25, 2010 - 04:49pm PT
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Justice Stevens’ dissent was unusually weak and full of obvious holes.
Have to wonder if his heart was not really in his no vote?
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apogee
climber
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Jan 25, 2010 - 05:20pm PT
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"who cares how many tea partiers there were...the point is these private citizens took to the streets to protest peacefully..."
Those tea parties are a perfect example of how a corporation with a profit and political agenda skew the political process, bookworm. FauxNews misrepresented those events, gave them regular airtime, with all of their personalities spurring them on...all at the behest of Rupert Murdoch & Roger Ailes...to support their political and profit agendas.
I know you cling to the belief that those events were truly grassroots efforts, and no-one is ever going to convince you otherwise. Even if they had originated as grassroots efforts, the FauxNews corporate interests manipulated them to their own benefit.
You have repeatedly stated that any person can easily investigate the funding sources of a campaign and make a decision for themselves as to their objectivity or bias. FauxNews is a great example of how a corporate interest has gone to great lengths to spin their appearance as an impartial, 'fair & balanced' source. There can be no doubt that a large part of their viewership have had their views of issues deeply affected by the material they have misrepresented and skewed.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 25, 2010 - 05:31pm PT
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Justice Stevens’ dissent was unusually weak and full of obvious holes.
Only if you consider it weak to point out the majority ruled without issue and tossed six or seven previous decisions in the process. I suppose it's equally weak to point out that nothing about the issue had changed from previous decisions except for "the composition of the Court."
Weak, yeah, right. Your comment is weak.
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