Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
 |
Apr 30, 2018 - 06:40pm PT
|
Is the correlation between brain and mind emergent or metaphysical?
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
 |
Apr 30, 2018 - 06:54pm PT
|
A Medal of Merit awarded to all who have participated on this thread.
I'd like to thank my family ,some of my teachers, some friends (not all) and the guy who passed me a cigarette through the screen in the infirmary at the LA juvenile hall many years ago.( I was in there due to a bad case of poison oak I obtained in a commune in Big Sur)
This award means a lot to me.
Again, thank you.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
|
 |
Why is religion so prevalent? | Fear of the unknown and unanswered questions.
How/why did morality evolve? | Pain and empathy.
Interesting bias and individualization of these issues.
The social anthropology take on these is that morality evolved to keep society functioning and therefore surviving and reproducing. Individual pain and empathy counted for little compared to the needs of society (arranged marriages for example which were/are the norm in most of the world).
Since humans lacked size and strength compared to their predators, they needed to evolve other strategies such as group cohesion and tool traditions. Simple rules like not stealing or lying or sleeping with other men's women are found in all societies for very practical reasons. There are of course many exceptions and these exceptions have been well documented and analyzed by anthropologists and found to have explanations peculiar to survival in a particular environment.
As for religion, fear of the unknown and the desire to know the answers to questions (such as "What is Mind?") surely played their role, but in societies where religion is still functioning as a major input (not ours), it is obvious that it plays a very important role in social cohesion, social order, healing, and entertainment as well.
Believing that your group has a special connection and duty to to the deity is a definite benefit to survival when all else seems hopeless. Believing in eternal punishment for breaking common sense social rules is much more efficient than brute force. Likewise, finding a larger meaning to injustice and suffering enables people to carry on. In a world prior to a few centuries ago when there were few humans and many dangers, these ideas were invaluable.
Today, in spite of our technological sophistication, the decline of religion and its maladies have instead been replaced by political partisanship and tribalism. Both seek to do what religion did before which is restore social order. Like religion, they can be bigoted and brutal. Whether they are superior to religion in maintaining social order and survival remains to be seen. Perhaps it is not a coincidence that in the advanced secular countries of the world, the native birthrate is increasingly below replacement, drug use and suicides are increasingly common and other groups who still have religion and more children are moving in.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
|
 |
Good post, Jan.
I bet eeyonkee agrees with your points, he just didn't draw it out so.
...
Future generations will be so lucky if only 1% of social media survives.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
 |
Interesting bias and individualization of these issues.
It's not a bias and the underlying biological imperatives and hardwired drivers are scoped to individuals first and existed way before there were significant tribes and societies of note - we're talking back at a time when humans were still prey as often as predator. In other words, think Konrad Lorenz (animal behavior) more than Sigmund Freud (human psychology).
In the night and on unfamiliar ground imagination was as much a curse as a gift in terms of not knowing what all the threats were, hence fear could spin out of control for individuals and groups generating all kinds of rational / irrational fantasies and behavioral responses. Religion has its roots in fear of the unknown.
And without understanding and recognizing pain there would be no empathy, no empathy then less bonding, less bonding then less social coherence.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
|
 |
Humans have always been social animals who have lived in groups as do all of our primate relatives. The group came first and indiviuation came later, reaching its peak in modern America.
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
 |
What is mind?
Mind is brain doing its work.
edit:
If you would like a more detailed exposition, read Margaret Boden's book, Mind as Machine.
But my answer is calibrated to match your question.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
 |
Humans have always been social animals who have lived in groups as do all of our primate relatives. The group came first and indiviuation came later, reaching its peak in modern America.
In primates, it's individual biological imperatives and hardwired drivers that come first and set the stage for all subsequent group and social behavior. The only instances of group-first imperative and hardwiring I know of are social insects.
And I'd say individuation reaches a peak anytime humans are forced by circumstances to live in culturally heterogeneous communities, so yeah, modern America qualifies.
|
|
paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
|
 |
Religion has its roots in fear of the unknown.
Fear implies negativity through weakness. Religion has its roots in the experience of the sublime, an experience that is the natural proclivity of the human mind. And the need to reconcile oneself to the sublime mystery of being is the mother of religious thought. Dismissing religion as a product of fear is the kind of tendentious argument that is too simple and lacks any real critical analysis.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
 |
I would most strenuously disagree and suggest your analysis is little more than a feel-good fairytale the religiously-inclined tell themselves. Fear was experienced far in advance of the sublime. Fear is the basis of most of today's religions and, hell, even the Buddhists in Myanmar have been driven to genocide by fear.
|
|
eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
|
 |
In primates, it's individual biological imperatives and hardwired drivers that come first and set the stage for all subsequent group and social behavior. The only instances of group-first imperative and hardwiring I know of are social insects.
Jan, I'd have to agree with healyje on this one, although it is still a subject that evolutionary biologists disagree on. I believe that the consensus is that selection occurs at the gene and individual organism level rather than the group. Even the social insects' world can be viewed at a gene-selection level if you consider that the sacrificing of an individual for the group can still result in an individual's genes preferentially propagating downstream (because it shares genes preferentially with its closest relatives).
I have another possible explanation for religion; it's a natural consequence of humans' (and many other species') natural tendency to ascribe (after-the-fact) meaning to events. This is what our interpreter does -- ascribes meaning to the events that we have experienced.
|
|
eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
|
 |
How you doing goatboy?
It occurs to me that the way you can frame the group selectionist argument is like this. Does it go:
group => organism (individual) => gene? Or
gene => organism => group?
It seems obvious to me that the latter follows the evolutionary direction. Genes are building blocks for organisms are building blocks for groups.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
 |
I think part of the disparity between Jan and me is she's thinking more on the level of human behavior within social frameworks of later eras and I tend to drop back to pre-societal times and basic genetic wiring.
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
|
 |
Not really.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
 |
Really.
|
|
eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
|
 |
I checked out the reference that MH2 provided a little up-thread -- Mind as Machine: A History of Cognitive Science, by Margaret A. Boden. Here's an early passage that resonates with me.
1.i: MIND AND ITS PLACE IN NATURE
A host of intriguing questions about mind and its place in nature occur to most thinking people. (The FAQs of the mind, Web-users might say.) As explained in the Preface, some have puzzled me for almost as long as I can remember—and I usually found that my friends were puzzled by them too. They centered on the nature of mind and the mind–body problem; the evolution of mind; freedom and purpose; and how various psychopathologies are possible. Most of the topics studied in cognitive science fall
under one of these broad categories. And those which don’t, such as the nature of computation, are closely related to them.
a. Questions, questions . . .
We’re intrigued by consciousness, for example. We know there are close correlations between brain events and conscious states—but why is that so? The answer seems to be that our brains generate our consciousness. But how do they do this, in practice? Even more puzzling, how can they do this, in principle? Or maybe we only think we know this?
Some people argue that it doesn’t even make sense to suggest that there are correlations between conscious states and brain states. How could anyone with any common sense be led to make such a deeply counterintuitive claim? Perhaps ‘‘common sense’’ itself is radically misguided here (and was radically different in other historical periods)?
What about dogs and horses: are they conscious? And snails, flies, newts . . . ? For that matter, what about newborn babies: are they conscious in anything like the sense in which adult humans are? What of machines? Could a machine be conscious—and if not, why not? People often wonder whether a creature has to have a brain, or something very like one, to be intelligent. If so, why?
Is a brain (as well as eyes) needed to see, for example? What do the visual brain cells do that the retinal cells don’t? What about intelligent action? How, for instance, does the brain convert an Olympic diver’s intention to dive into the finely modulated bodily movements that ensue? If we knew this, could we drop talk of intentions and refer only to brains instead?
Consider chimps, or cats: what can their brains do, and what can’t they do? And what can they do without the mammalian (and avian) glory, the cerebral hemispheres? Given that Homo sapiens evolved from lower animals,what does this tell us about our mental powers? Can anything interesting be learnt about the human mind by studying distantly related species such as frogs, or insects?
As for machines, just how—if at all—must an artifice resemble a real brain if it’s even to seem to support a mind? And even if studying insects can teach us something about ourselves, what about studying inanimate tin cans—like a Mars robot, or an automatic controller in a chemical factory?
How could these things (sic) possibly be relevant?
What mental powers does a human brain provide, and how does it manage to do so?
How is free will possible? And creativity? Are creative ideas unpredictable, and if so why? What are emotions—and do they conflict with rationality, or support it?
Are our abilities inborn, or determined by experience? And how does the brain get its detailed anatomical structure: from genetics or from the environment—or perhaps even from spontaneous self-organization? (Is that last suggestion mere hand-waving, more magic than science?) Do we all share psychological properties that mould every human culture? Perhaps the same underlying sense of beauty: maybe in symmetry, or expanses of water?
I like the title of the section, especially -- Mind and It's Place in Nature. That is the proper way to look at mind.
|
|
Trump
climber
|
 |
“Fear implies negativity ..
the experience of the sublime .. is the natural proclivity of the human mind ..”
That’s cool. I expect there’s a psychology study somewhere where they measured these things, and observed that human minds spend more time experiencing the sublime than they do experiencing fear.
Either that, or we make facts up to convince ourselves that we really are geniuses. Hey, kind of like my supporters do!
Please don’t introduce any more tendentious arguments. And by tendentious I mean ones that support a belief that I don’t like. If you just check your simpleminded knowledge of all the other intelligent life forms in the universe, you’ll clearly see that humans are the greatest thing ever!
Love ya humans!
|
|
paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
|
 |
I would most strenuously disagree and suggest your analysis is little more than a feel-good fairytale the religiously-inclined tell themselves. Fear was experienced far in advance of the sublime. Fear is the basis of most of today's religions and, hell, even the Buddhists in Myanmar have been driven to genocide by fear.
By this logic we could say that all human activity was "rooted in fear." Politics, science even copulation. The idea someone is having sex simply because they fear the end of their genetic line is as ridiculous as the notion that faith is simply a product of the fear of death. The need for religion is complex and the attempt to disparage it by relegating it to cowardice is ignoring the reality of its benefits historically and presently.
The notion that fear preceded our notion of the sublime, if you can prove it, worth a Nobel. Genocide is almost always the product of politics. If you think the battles between Sunni and Shia or Protestant and Catholic or Buddhist and Muslim are religious you haven't studied the situations. Religion is only an expendable tool in such situations. The battle in the middle east is one between the Arabs and the Persians for area dominance
That’s cool. I expect there’s a psychology study somewhere where they measured these things, and observed that human minds spend more time experiencing the sublime than they do experiencing fear.
I agree with the first sentence but the rest of this makes no sense. Maybe re-write or re-tweet or whatever.
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
|
 |
Healyje,
I think the disparity between you and Jan is far more than a difference of opinion about that little issue.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|