Huge 8.9 quake plus tsunami - Japan

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monolith

climber
berzerkly
Dec 3, 2011 - 10:50pm PT
You seem to now agree that hydrogen detonation happened.

What design considerations for this is another subject.
monolith

climber
berzerkly
Dec 3, 2011 - 11:09pm PT
"you can fill a building with hydrogen,
lite a match and you still dont get a detonation"

You implied that it was not a hydrogen detonation.
monolith

climber
berzerkly
Dec 3, 2011 - 11:33pm PT
How can you possibly say that they don't think a detonation happened?

Why did they start pumping in nitrogen?

Answer: They did not want it to happen again.
monolith

climber
berzerkly
Dec 3, 2011 - 11:48pm PT
It's pretty obvious from the pics that a detonation happened. You need to provide a link where TEPCO says it did not happen. That's your spin on it.

You bring up good points about design considerations, and Fairwinds is doing a good service by giving the commission his opinion, but saying this it is being totally ignored has not been proven.

Here TEPCO talks about an explosion. They are clearly not claiming that hydrogen detonations can't happen.

http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/11/fukushima-i-nuke-plant-reactor-4-tepco.html
monolith

climber
berzerkly
Dec 4, 2011 - 12:08am PT
Yes, he's probably right about design, but saying he is being ignored is not proven. Only new designs and possible refits can prove that. Time will tell.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 13, 2011 - 05:41am PT
http://www.naturalnews.com/034395_Fukushima_cesium_radiation.html#ixzz1gP3sbsOF

Things are suddenly heating up again with Fukushima. As we reported yesterday, the southern wall of Fukushima reactor #4 apparently collapsed over the past few days, calling into question the structural integrity of the remainder of the containment building

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/034395_Fukushima_cesium_radiation.html#ixzz1gPTAcfjt[/quote

Photos of the failed structure have emerged on Enenews.com, where a report explains that a once-intact wall is now essentially "missing" and that further degradation of the structure could lead to mass evacuations in Japan (http://enenews.com/report-confirmed...);

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/034395_Fukushima_cesium_radiation.html#ixzz1gPTpYpyS[/quote]

What has hit the mainstream media, however, is a report entitled Impacts of the Fukushima Nuclear Power Plants on Marine Radioactivity, authored by Ken Buesseler, Michio Aoyama, and Masao Fukasawa (http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021...);.

This report, published in Environmental Science & Technology, reveals that levels of radioactive cesium reached 50 million times normal levels in the ocean water off the coast of the Fukushima Dai-ichi facility. Even more concerning, the abstract of this paper concludes, "...the concentrations through the end of July remain higher than expected implying continued releases from the reactors or other contaminated sources, such as groundwater or coastal sediments."


Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/034395_Fukushima_cesium_radiation.html#ixzz1gPUAU9G8[/quote]

Another important development now surfacing is that TEPCO has finally admitted that alarming quantities of radioactive strontium (which has roughly a 30-year half life) have leaked into the ocean -- and that the leaks are ongoing!

According to TEPCO, which has repeatedly and deliberately lied to the public in order to downplay any "bad news" about radiological leaks, "26 billion becquerels of radioactive materials" have leaked into the ocean due to the Fukushima accident. (http://www.japantoday.com/category/...);
[/qoute]

"This suggests that the releases have not ended, so that is of concern," said Ken Buesseler from the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution. "If the contaminants end up in the marine sediments / muds, then they will remain there for decades to come, and thus potentially be of concern for benthic biota and consumers of benthic fish/shell fish, i.e. any local filter feeders near the source waters at the coast." (http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/int...);

The worst may be yet to come

What's clear from all this is that:

• The Fukushima facility remains highly unstable and could dramatically worsen, especially if another earthquake or tsunami strikes the area and causes further degradation of the structural integrity of containment buildings which still house nuclear fuel rods.

• The Fukushima catastrophe is, without question, the most massive radiological disaster ever recorded in human history.

• The mainstream media has consistently (intentionally?) downplayed the severity of the Fukushima disaster, perhaps to try to calm fears by denying the true extent of the problem.

• TEPCO routinely and habitually lied about the status of Fukushima during the meltdown and in the days and weeks following that meltdown.


Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/034395_Fukushima_cesium_radiation.html#ixzz1gPUO5SSj[/quote]
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Dec 13, 2011 - 11:17am PT
Having read Rachel Carson's "Under the Sea - Wind" and "The Sea Around Us," I can only imagine the impacts to marine life, which of course will filter up through birds and other animals(including human).

Earth will continue to evolve, and surely some species will along with it. Likely the quickly reproducing, since they can adapt. I have to wonder - if the old saying "The Meek Shall Inherit the Earth" refers to insects.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 14, 2011 - 06:01am PT
I'm bumping this because it's very real for us on the West coast. This thing looks like its about to hugely fail and then the fallout blows right over here. What do do?

Be aware
Roger Brown

climber
Oceano, California
Dec 14, 2011 - 12:43pm PT
Karl,
While I agree this is a big ugly problem, it is what it is. I try to get information from sources on both ends and keep an open mind. Since I am a Nuclear plant worker, I have a different view than you. Like what are the facts about exposure? I know that American workers are not allowed over 5 rem per year. If you even get close, the company will lay you off rather than have you go over and get a big fine from the NRC. Oh yea, they can't hide your dose and niether can you. Did you know that workers in Japan have always been allowed 5 rem a day? YEA, A DAY!! I did not know this till yesterday. I got 1/3 of a rem. in one jump at a really dirty plant earlier this year and it really freaked me out. Because of the problem over there they have raised the limit to 25 rem per day! You would think they would be dropping like fly's but I guess they are not. I am thinking the cancer rates will incease for those workers but those guys have been getting really dosed for years. I wonder what thier worker cancer rates are compaired to ours? I get a lot of information fron nuclear worker web sites that you can Google. I wonder what the dose rates will be here from a worse case scenario over there? 1 rem=1000 mrem. 1 rem=.01 millisievert.
You can google rem. to sv. and check my figures. I am glad that our government is at least making an effort at keeping it's workers safe. You know, OSHA, The NRC, Cal OSHA, and others. I did read the links you posted but I read both sides and try to keep an open mind. We both seem to have a lot of free time right now. You are probably laying around still healing up while I am laying around waiting for a job call:-) Hope you are making a full recovery from the accident last spring.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 14, 2011 - 02:45pm PT
I'm healing up pretty good, even done some guiding here and there, just not climbing at my limit. It's off season for me and so I waste too much time at the taco.

Here's the thing about my last post, this rem and this mild to moderate exposure is one thing, but when you have a stock full "spent" fuel pool in the upper level of a building that's crumbling and photo show one wall recently fell down, then a whole 'nother story may go down and release huge, huge amounts of radiation screwing part of Japan and potentially creating a nightmare for the west coast. Just a heads up on that.

Peace

Karl
Roger Brown

climber
Oceano, California
Dec 14, 2011 - 05:03pm PT
I am thinking from what I know about that type of plant is that it has already happened and that everything is already in the bottom like a big pool of molten lava, trying to burn it's way thru the bottom of the reactor vessel, then thru the bottom of the containment structure, then thru the ground. Would the problem be that if it did and then finally hit a bunch of water would it go off like a Volcano blasting a giant cloud of steam into the atmosphere? Is seawater made up of part hydrogen? When they tried to cool the reactor with seawater early in the game, is that what caused the explosion? I know they are screwed, but I wonder just how much dose we will actually get here on the coast? Will it just be steam, or will it be contaminated matter from a great explosion? More matter than from those two atomic bombs? Maybe we need a little input from people on the forum that understand this stuff. What would be the best course of action? Stockpile food and water and just stay inside for awhile? Seems like anything would be better than nothing. Just my thoughts sitting here today.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Dec 14, 2011 - 08:12pm PT
Is seawater made up of part hydrogen?

Water is H2O.

http://web.engr.oregonstate.edu/~petersr/RadiolyticEnhancementLiterature/Water%20Decomposition%20Paper%203%20Vinson.pdf

Hydrogen can be generated from the radiolytic decomposition of water. Hydrogen generation has been studied quite a bit. You are right however, that a steam excursion is also possible. Sorry, but I don't know about the quantity of radiation that could be emitted.

For a non-political but technical perspective you can check out this site:

http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/2011/fukushimareport01.html
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Dec 15, 2011 - 01:51am PT
There's a seemingly balanced article about this in the New York Times today.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/15/world/asia/japan-set-to-declare-control-over-damaged-nuclear-reactors.html?hp

I go with the theory that for cultural reasons the Japanese government will do everything possible to smooth things over, regardless of the reality. Our only hope is if the International Atomic Energy Commission and other outside agencies try to keep them honest.
krahmes

Social climber
Stumptown
Dec 22, 2011 - 01:09pm PT
Paging Ed H. or anyone with a knowledgeable background on nuclear power.

Expert on US, Canada: We’ll see a statistically meaningful increase in cancer from Fukushima on west coast — After Japan, the most radioactive area is Cascade Mountains — Portland had cesium at 100

Here’s the link:
http://youtu.be/4spUp_LzEPM

It’s a long video, but I spent more time in my hometown of Portland last year than I had in the prior 25 years and ran more road miles last year than I had in since my high school track days. Did I just F myself?

I’m no expert on the nuclear industry (and I do harbor a deep distrust of that technology) and I try to keep that in mind when I come across unsubstantiated claims on Youtube.

So does Arnie Gunderson have any credibility? Do his views, claims, and expertise have any merit?
mynameismud

climber
backseat
Dec 22, 2011 - 01:23pm PT
I think it is like smoking. May or may not be an issue. There is no way to prove empirically that you will or will not have any issues at some time in the future that can be directly linked to this event.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Dec 22, 2011 - 01:39pm PT
it's hard to know how to evaluate all of the risks to which we are being subjected

i just spent two weeks between portland, hood river, and richland wa; visiting relatives

and will probably be spending even more time there teaching computer science at WSU Tricities

my uncle worked most of his life as a senior nuclear engineering manager at Hanford and just had his 91st birthday in Richland and is still smarter than most, and very pessimistic about the future of the economy

one of his sons has also spent his entire career at the Hanford plant and another on nuclear submarines

i tend to be more worried about pesticide/herbicide poisons in our food supply, and do my best to obtain clean food

i think the best we can do is stay healthy and prepare for hard times
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 22, 2011 - 10:33pm PT
the effects of high radiation dose levels are well understood. low levels, not so much. there is a lot of disagreement among those who are considered experts at such thing.

however, if you are worried about living in the west coast or even visiting, then you dont have a clue about risk assessment. driving is more hazardous to your health than the radiation from japan. or just check out the thread on formula might make you gay. so many unknowns in this life....
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Dec 29, 2011 - 04:58pm PT
xenon precluded start-up!!! Anyone not a Nuc-power insider has probably never heard this term. Xenon 135.

The inability of a reactor to be restarted due to the effects of 135Xe is sometimes referred to as xenon precluded start-up, and the reactor is said to be "poisoned out"[4]. The period of time where the reactor is unable to override the effects of 135Xe is called the xenon dead time.

Says loss of control is a real possibility if restart is attempted too soon and/or clumsily.

Failing to manage this xenon transient properly caused the Chernobyl reactor power to overshoot ~100x normal causing a steam explosion
-and resultant disaster-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenon-135

So after a SCRAM you can't just pull the rods back out and expect to start boiling water and generate electricity. They are vague about how much time the fuel bundles are 'poisoned out'. Hours for a typical land based N power plant.

For N subs its desirable not to sink past crush depth after a SCRAM so the reactor crews have a white knuckle incentive to finesse the dangerous
restart in a core with wildly changing neutron / reactor poison ratios.

!

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jan 2, 2012 - 03:04pm PT
Per David J. Atkinson quoting a Japanese senator:
男は原発、女は性風俗”--, in other words, “When a man has to survive doing something, it’s the nuclear industry; for a woman, it’s the sex industry.”
....When asked what were the major differences between the Yakuza and TEPCO the same senator paused for a minute. “The primary difference between TEPCO and the Yakuza is they have different corporate logos.”
The Yakuza has been involved in kidnapping people to serve as workers at the Fukushima-Daichi plant.
Bottom line: business as usual -- corrupt!

http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/

Monday, January 2, 2012
#Fukushima Reactor 4 Skimmer Surge Tank Latest: Earthquake Caused the Water to Go from SFP to Reactor Well Instead, Says TEPCO

TEPCO admits the January 1, 2012 earthquake caused it, and no it wasn't a leak but the water from the Spent Fuel Pool went the other way to the Reactor Well, instead of going to the Skimmer Surge Tank.

(For the last announcement from TEPCO, see my post here.)

I started reading the Mainichi Shinbun article, but it was very short on details, and knowing TEPCO couldn't have held a press conference on January 2 I went to look for TEPCO's own words somewhere. It was in the handout for the press on January 2, 2012.

The handout is in Japanese only for now, so the following is my translation. It was clearly written over time as new information came in. (I will put up the English reference handout when TEPCO issues one.)

1月1日午後5時30 分頃、4号機使用済燃料プールのスキマサージタンク*1の水位が午後2時から午後5時までの3時間で約240mm 低下していることを確認(これまでの運転実績では3時間で約50mm 程度の低下)。その後、現場確認を行った結果、4号機原子炉建屋外廻りおよび同号機使用済燃料プール代替冷却システムの一次系配管接続部や設置エリア等に、漏えいは確認されなかった。

At 5:30PM on January 1, it was observed that the water level of the Skimmer Surge Tank of the Spent Fuel Pool of Reactor 4 dropped by 240 millimeters during the 3 hours from 2PM to 5PM (while the normal decline is 50 millimeters in 3 hours). Later we surveyed the facilities, but found no leak outside the reactor building, at the pipe joints of the SFP cooling system or at the location where the cooling system was installed.

なお、1月1日午後5時現在の4号機使用済燃料プール水の温度は23℃(1月2日午前5時現在22℃)であり、現在も使用済燃料プール代替冷却システムは運転しているため、同プールの冷却に問題はない。また、使用済燃料プールの水位も維持されており問題はないものの、スキマサージタンクの水位低下は継続しているため、1月1日午後10 時27 分から同日午後11 時13 分にかけてスキマサージタンクの水張りを実施。現在のスキマサージタンク水位低下は1時間あたり約90mm で継続中であり、スキマサージタンクの水位確認を3時間に1回から1時間に1回に強化する等の監視強化を継続。なお、現時点では建屋外への漏えいは確認されておらず、建屋内の滞留水の水位にも顕著な変化は確認されていない。

As of 5PM on January 1, the temperature of the water in the Reactor 4 SFP was 23 degrees Celsius (as of 5AM on January 2 it was 22 degrees Celsius). The SFP cooling system is in operation and there is no problem in cooling the pool. While the water level in the SFP remained the same, the water level in the Skimmer Surge Tank continued to drop. From 10:27PM to 11:13PM on January 1, we filled the water in the Skimmer Surge Tank. Currently the water level is declining at about 90 millimeters per hour. We are monitoring the water level every hour instead of every 3 hours. As of now there is no leak outside the building, and there is no noticeable change in the water level of the contaminated water inside the [reactor] building.

その後の調査により、スキマサージタンクの水位低下に相当する減少量と原子炉ウェル*2の水位上昇に相当する増加量がほぼ同等であること、および原子炉ウェル水位が使用済燃料プール水位より低いことを確認。これらのことから、1月1日午後2時30 分頃に発生した地震の影響で原子炉ウェルと使用済燃料プール間のゲートの隙間の状態が変化し、使用済燃料プールから原子炉ウェル側への水の流入量が増加したことにより、使用済燃料プールからスキマサージタンクへのオーバーフロー量が低下し、スキマサージタンクの水位低下が通常よりも多くなったことが原因であると推定。

Later inspection revealed that the amount of water decreased in the Skimmer Surge Tank was about the same as the amount of water increased in the Reactor Well, and that the water level in the Reactor Well was lower than that in the SFP. Therefore, our hypothesis is that: the earthquake on January 1 at 2:30PM tweaked the space in the gate between the Reactor Well and the SFP; water flowed from the SFP to the Reactor Well, and the overflow water to the Skimmer Surge Tank decreased, causing the water level of the Skimmer Surge Tank to decrease more than normal.

原子炉ウェルと使用済燃料プールの水位差を低減させるため、1月2日午前11 時50 分から午前11 時59 分にかけて原子炉ウェルへの水張りを実施したところ、午後4時現在、スキマサージタンクの水位低下は確認されていない。今後も引き続きスキマサージタンク水位の監視を実施予定。

In order to decrease the difference in the water levels between the Reactor Well and the Spent Fuel Pool, water was poured into the Reactor Well from 11:50AM to 11:59AM on January 2. As of 4PM, there is no decrease in the water level in the Skimmer Surge Tank observed. We will continue to monitor the water level in the Skimmer Surge Tank.

*1 使用済燃料プールからオーバーフローした水を受けるため設置されているタンク。使用済燃料プールの水は、通常、燃料集合体の冷却および水の不純物を取り除くため、スキマサージタンクへオーバーフローさせ、熱交換器およびフィルタを通した後、再び使用済燃料プールへ戻している。

Skimmer surge tank is a tank set up to collect the overflow from the Spent Fuel Pool. In order to cool the spent fuel bundles and to remove impurities from the water, the water in the Spent Fuel Pool is overflowed into the skimmer surge tank, and goes through the heat exchanger and the filter before it goes back into the Spent Fuel Pool.

*2 原子炉ウェルは、原子炉圧力容器および原子炉格納容器の蓋を収納している空間で、定期検査中はこの空間を満水状態にし、燃料交換などを行う。

The Reactor Well is a space to store the Reactor Pressure Vessel and the Containment Vessel Lid. During the regular maintenance [which Reactor 4 was undergoing at the time of the accident], this space is filled with water to conduct work such as exchanging the nuclear fuel.
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Jan 2, 2012 - 03:20pm PT
Interesting read. -

Researcher links the fallout from nuclear tests for a startling drop in SAT scores 18 years later i.e. babies still inside mothers were developmentally
affected by fallout if he is correct.

http://ratical.org/radiation/SecretFallout/SFchp16.html


Several measures of brain function, mental ability and scholastic
achievement demonstrate that the irradiated children suffered impairment.
**These findings are consistent with and extend previous findings of
suggestive brain damage from radiation.**


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