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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Mar 11, 2015 - 04:41pm PT
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Getting us out of two pointless wars and not starting another one is a helluva good foreign policy in my book.
And has given us Islamic State. What, exactly, would an ally of the U. S., say Ukraine, for instance, expect from this administration? Does this administration have a policy, other than speak loudly and carry a small stick?
John
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 11, 2015 - 04:44pm PT
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Obama administration started more and expanded wars all over you stupid brainwashed politarded do nothing forum loons.
This stoopid brainwashed thread should be nuked ....
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Mar 11, 2015 - 05:28pm PT
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Mar 11, 2015 - 06:06pm PT
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Mar 11, 2015 - 06:11pm PT
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This stoopid brainwashed thread should be nuked ....
The mostest truest thing ever uttered on this forum.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Mar 11, 2015 - 06:24pm PT
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bvb, your posts usually don't interest me, but this one is really funny.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Mar 11, 2015 - 06:29pm PT
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You can admit it pal, they fascinate you to no end. You're no different then the rest. Nothing to be ashamed of.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Mar 11, 2015 - 09:15pm PT
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And has given us Islamic State
John, Bush gave us the Islamic state when he ousted Hussein. Even a dummy like me saw that coming. Eliminating Saddam handed Iraq over to the Shias, and thus Iran.
Think about it, he knocked out one of the few secular states in the middle-east. The other two being Syria and Libya. Funny, eh?
If you like, I could try to find my rec.climbing post about it. Lord Slime called me an idiot for that, IIRC.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Mar 11, 2015 - 09:19pm PT
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"Beyond that, I cannot discern a coherent foreign policy from this administration. About the only thing the Obama and Bush administrations share for sure is inadequate intelligence in the middle east."
Did you say the same thing about CheneyBushco ®, John? Funny...I don't seem to recall such commentary...and Obama's foreign policy is about as indiscernible from Bush II's as possible.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Mar 11, 2015 - 09:30pm PT
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Mar 11, 2015 - 10:35pm PT
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Beyond that, I cannot discern a coherent foreign policy from this administration.
I imagine that conducting a comprehensive evaluation of each situation on it's own merits is an incoherent policy to you, but to me, I think that is probably a pretty good way to go.
Kill terrorists. Not the Republican position, who still seem to mourn the death of OBL.
Disengage us from war. Check.
Don't engage us in new wars in any comprehensive way. Check.
Try to help the good guys, try to impede the bad guys. Buy off people when it's in our interest.
Normalize relations with Cuba, expand our influence.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Mar 12, 2015 - 05:03am PT
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John queried What, exactly, is the Obama administration's foreign policy, Degaine?
If you don't really have foreign policy wonk credentials I don't think this is criticism one can levy without it simply being a oft used talking point. Foreign policy is always complicated and Obama, unlike Bush, lacks a unifying vision (Bush's appeared to be SUBMIT!) because he appears to recognize that "doing something" is not actually a sound policy and the political terrain of the MIddle East has changed more during the Obama presidency than even the Bush one. The only way ISIS doesn't come to be in more or less it's current state is if Obama leaves lots of American troops in Iraq (which Iraq, under the US backed leadership of extreme factionist and borderline dictator al-Maliki, did not want) or if Obama committed sizable ground troops to Syria. In both those cases we are committed to more open ended, extremely hostile wars against Muslim nations which literally nobody wanted. On top of that, committing ground troops would do nothing but empower the very ideologic hardliners who have become powerful and experienced enough to be able to establish a caliphate to begin with.
Despite the Fox News rhetoric, there was no easy way to prevent the current situation short of not invading Iraq to begin with. Had our government (Obama included) taken ISIS more seriously earlier on, we might have been able to blunt their advance but even rallying support to begin the bombing campaign that we are currently waging required extremely dire circumstances to motivate international forces.
Let's say that the US had given weapons to the Syrian rebels, many of whom are only US allies so long as the current Syrian regime stands. And then lets pretend that those arms would have actually tipped the balance towards the rebels and Assad fell. Would that have stopped the creation of ISIS, or would that have handed the entire country of Syria over to it, along with a good portion of Iraq?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Mar 12, 2015 - 05:38am PT
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The ME is a complex issue...Many scenarios could play out...The Grand Ayatollah Van Belle will tip the teetering power vacumn into a downhill spiral of mass bedlam....Allah Ak Van Belle..!
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Mar 12, 2015 - 06:05am PT
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HighDesertDJ,
Really good comments. As RJ says, the ME is really complicated.
What I read into John E's comments are things like meaningless red lines that undermine US credibility and an administration that seems to diss our allies while bowing and pandering to historic enemies.
In addition, there is no doubt that totally pulling out of Iraq left a power vacuum, regardless of whose "fault" that was.
How to proceed? Generations of statesmen have been asking that. I am only an average intellect blabbing on a climbing forum without any answers.
A few things I believe to be true:
This country no longer has the will or the political capital to commit ground troops.
Letting Allah sort it out while watching the horrors from the comfort of our living rooms has not been a typical American reaction.
The rest of the first world needs more resolve and skin in the game.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Mar 12, 2015 - 06:24am PT
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Larry posted Letting Allah sort it out while watching the horrors from the comfort of our living rooms has not been a typical American reaction.
The rest of the first world needs more resolve and skin in the game.
But is not necessarily the wrong reaction either. We are often presented with a scenario where "if we do not intervene this terrible thing will happen" but fail to acknowledge that if we DO intervene this other terrible thing will happen. Our military power is incredible, but military power has yet to solve any of our problems related to terrorism or religious extremism, probably because we don't have an idea bomb.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Mar 12, 2015 - 06:46am PT
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HighDesertDJ wrote;
But is not necessarily the wrong reaction either.
My wife and I had an old friend who was the pilot on the 2nd plane to hit the World Trade Center on 9/11 (I was climbing on the Matthes Crest the day it happened and didn't know for 2 days or more). I wanted revenge in a big way and supported the efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq...just like the vast majority of Democrats in Congress. Over time we all grew weary of watching Americans, who would have died in previous wars, coming back broken beyond belief.
I do believe that in foreign ventures or wars, that politics should stop at the waters edge. Because of that I felt public opposition from public officials emboldened an enemy in a time of war. The troops on the ground were pawns of both sides of the debate. The voting booth is where these things should be decided.
I have been pondering these ME issues for a long time and the point you make is really good and one I vacillate on often.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Mar 12, 2015 - 07:10am PT
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Mar 11, 2015 - 10:35pm PT
Beyond that, I cannot discern a coherent foreign policy from this administration.
I imagine that conducting a comprehensive evaluation of each situation on it's own merits is an incoherent policy to you, but to me, I think that is probably a pretty good way to go.
Kill terrorists. Not the Republican position, who still seem to mourn the death of OBL.
Disengage us from war. Check.
Don't engage us in new wars in any comprehensive way. Check.
Try to help the good guys, try to impede the bad guys. Buy off people when it's in our interest.
Normalize relations with Cuba, expand our influence.
Ken, this is outstanding.
And HDDJ's analysis is spot on. Nice work, fellas.
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