Huge 8.9 quake plus tsunami - Japan

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Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Nov 11, 2011 - 09:01pm PT
And the New York Times has a report on the heroic but ultimately futile efforts of the workers to save the plant in the first few hours and days after the tsunami. Very interesting reading.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/12/world/asia/report-details-initial-chaos-at-fukushima-daiichi-nuclear-plant-in-japan.html?hp
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 11, 2011 - 09:06pm PT
There was a report in our paper that debris from the earthquake and tsunami would soon start washing ashore on the beaches of the outer coast. Millions of tonnes of stuff got carried out to sea, including things like houses and boats. It's been observed meandering its way toward Haida Gwaii and Vancouver Island.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Nov 11, 2011 - 09:18pm PT
Interesting how some of it is headed toward Hawaii and some to the West Coast. Studying it will teach us a lot about ocean currents. I'm also wondering if valuable momentos of people's lives won't be rescued during the beach cleanups and perhaps returned? The hope of that would at least be one bright spot in dealing with the mess.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 11, 2011 - 09:24pm PT
Well, it does.

Debris from Japanese tsunami could reach B.C. shore in days

Houses, fishing boats and small freighters carried by winds could already be nearing the coast, oceanographer says

The largest items swept out to sea following the Japanese tsunami in March could arrive on the B.C. coastline within days, oceanographer Curt Ebbesmeyer has predicted.

The main part of the 20-million-tonne debris field, equivalent in size to the state of California, isn't expected until about 2014. But houses, fishboats and small freighters, carried by wind, could already be close to our shores, Ebbesmeyer said.

"We just finished running a simulation with a drifter, a buoy that got lost in the area of the tsunami, and we find that the first of the debris would be here now," he explained.

Beachcombers along the west coast of B.C. should be on the lookout and report any unusual finds, he said.

A Transport Canada spokeswoman said contingency plans are in the works to deal with debris that might pose navigational hazards in Canadian waters.

Ebbesmeyer is a Seattle-based oceanographer, educated at the University of Washington, who tracks flotsam using computer models. He has consulted for multinational firms, working on projects such as the BP oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico last year.

The March 11 earthquake and tsunami in Japan prompted Ebbesmeyer and fellow oceanographer Jim Ingraham to run computer simulations on the path of debris carried out to sea by the tsunami.

Debris moves faster if it is exposed to the wind, Ebbesmeyer said.

"People who base their results on satellite-tracking buoys get a slower speed than those of us who track Nike shoes and hockey gloves and airplane wings," Ebbesmeyer said.

Researchers Nikolai Maximenko and Jan Hafner at the International Pacific Research Center in Hawaii are monitoring the debris field through both computer models and ship reports.

Hafner said Wednesday that windblown flotsam isn't part of his research. He said ocean currents will deliver a significant amount of plastic to this area in 2013 or 2014. The majority will remain in a North Pacific "garbage patch," where swirling currents surround a vast amount of seaborne junk.

The crew of a cargo ship near Midway Island spotted an 18-foot vessel in the debris field, Hafner said.

The Japanese have immense respect for belongings such as fishboats, said Ebbesmeyer, predicting an influx of Japanese tourists coming to B.C. to see washed-up debris. "When people find something on the beach, they are literally putting their hands on something that a family wants to know about," he said.

A Japanese fishboat that washed ashore in Prince Rupert several years ago has become a shrine to fishermen lost at sea, he said.

Tofino beachcomber Barry Campbell can relate. A few years ago, he found a sealed bottle on the beach containing a note written by students at a Japanese school.

He wrote to the school "and got a huge stack of letters from each individual class," most of them in Japanese.

Ebbesmeyer is asking anyone seeing floating debris of an unusual nature to take a photograph and send it to him through his website at flotsa metrics.com.
http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Debris+from+Japanese+tsunami+could+reach+shore+days/5695321/story.html#ixzz1dSCnYefz
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Nov 11, 2011 - 09:33pm PT
hey there say, jan... and mighty hiker,thanks for the sharing, and of the links, too...

:)
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Nov 11, 2011 - 10:58pm PT
Combing those beaches and boarding the fishing vessels looking for personal momentos would be a very worthwhile pastime that I would be interested in if I lived in B.C. Japanese families are still gratefully receiving family momentos taken as souvenirs by American soldiers in WWII.

I suspect some of the attics of those houses and the fishing trawlers especially, may well contain bodies. And knowing the Japanese, there is probably a lot of yen on board many of them, perhaps a safe or two.

Meanwhile North America and Hawaii will have a real mess to clean up.
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Nov 27, 2011 - 08:59am PT
Special Report on the Nuclear Accident at the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station

The Institute of Nuclear Power Operations has compiled a detailed timeline of events at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power station after the March 11 earthquake and tsunami in Japan. The detailed report, prepared as part of the integrated response to the Japan events, was delivered on Nov. 11, 2011, to U.S. industry executives, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission and members of Congress.

Lots of detail in regards to what actually happened at Fuku here:
http://www.nei.org/filefolder/11_005_Special_Report_on_Fukushima_Daiichi_MASTER_11_08_11_1.pdf

If you have questions about terms, values, processes, etc... And reseraching it (preferred) doesn't help, feel free to shoot me an email. I will explain or answer anything I can, or get you an answer from one who can. I have had a few questions I had to ask Operations, Nuclear Engineering, and Structural and/or Systems Engineering, concerning some details. I will not be responding here, as it just degrades into BS.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Dec 1, 2011 - 12:06am PT
We have known this is true, however, Japan now finally admits it . . .




DECEMBER 1, 2011
Reactor Core Melted Fully, Japan Says
Fuel Breached Vessel Floor, Operator Says, In Its Gravest Fukushima Status Report
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204262304577069302835999204.html?mod=WSJ_article_forsub
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 2, 2011 - 02:32am PT
From the article that Klimmer linked to.

Reactor Core Melted Fully, Japan Says
Fuel Breached Vessel Floor, Operator Says, In Its Gravest Fukushima Status Report

TOKYO—Japan's tsunami-stricken nuclear-power complex came closer to a catastrophic meltdown than previously indicated by its operator—who on Wednesday described how one reactor's molten nuclear core likely burned through its primary containment chamber and then ate as far as three-quarters of the way through the concrete in a secondary vessel.

The assessment—offered by Japan's government and Tokyo Electric Power Co., the operator of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear complex—marked Japan's most sobering reckoning to date of the nuclear disaster sparked by the country's March 11 earthquake and tsunami.

But it came nearly six months after U.S. and international nuclear experts and regulators had reached similar conclusions. That lag echoes international allegations, in the tense weeks following the disaster, that Japan was underplaying the severity of the contamination and was slow to provide information to outside nuclear regulators.

Studly

Trad climber
WA
Dec 2, 2011 - 12:46pm PT
"Uncertainty involved in the analysis is significant, due to the uncertain nature of the original conditions and data used," Tepco said in a report. It said the concrete "could have been penetrated",
Based upon the extreme reluctance of Tepco to admit anything, where they have in fact have tried to cover up everything, I would pay particular attention to their admitance in that last sentence.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Dec 2, 2011 - 07:10pm PT
rrrAdam,
thanks for the report. I will review that.

What is interesting in the case of Japan is how their culture may impact the Nuclear safety and Quality Culture necessary to ensure that you engineer/construct/operate a facility in a safe manner. A questioning attitude and having the ability to bring up concerns, and have those concerns properly addressed is fundamental to having safe operations. While I am in no way an expert on Japanese Culture, it seems like bringing issues up is frowned upon. Not saying that that this would have helped this incident at all. However, the questioning attitude is also an input into transparency of what happened and why. TEPCo has obviously shown that they are incapable of that. Having the ability for all workers to bring up issues without retribution is paramount to operating not only Nukes safely, but chemical plants as well. One needs look no further than the BP Oil spill in the gulf to see how critical it is to be able to have an effective culture that is not driven solely by the $.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Dec 2, 2011 - 07:23pm PT
Fattrad, could be. Still bad when there is an issue that must be brought up in order to ensure safety. Probably not conducive to a transparent environment either.
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Dec 2, 2011 - 08:06pm PT
I opened the report from rradam and was immediately overwhelmed by the size/technicality of it. I, for one, do appreciate the discussion that ensues in threads like this, even as they do usually devolve with a lot of BS.
monolith

climber
berzerkly
Dec 2, 2011 - 08:31pm PT
war said:

theyre pumping nitrogen in to displace the oxygen so the hydrogen doesnt get the chance to explode again.

.......

there is currently no explaination in nuclear reactor science to explain how a high explosive event could have occured

LOL!
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Dec 3, 2011 - 03:26pm PT
monolith,

i did not see that in the report. Where is it? Hydrogen generation is a well known and studied area.
monolith

climber
berzerkly
Dec 3, 2011 - 03:30pm PT
Exactly Golson, that's why war made me laugh. There is no report, except if you consider the delusions of conspiracy theorists(war) to be a report.
monolith

climber
berzerkly
Dec 3, 2011 - 04:03pm PT
hydrogen deflageration to detonation

It's a well known phenomena, war. Just because Fariwinds can't destroy a plastic bottle doesn't mean a containment building won't be destroyed.

The demo with the bottle was to show how deflageration to detonation can happen.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Dec 3, 2011 - 04:27pm PT
Its called LEL and UEL. Pretty basic science. Too lean of a mix and no go. Too rich of a mixture and no go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flammability_limit
monolith

climber
berzerkly
Dec 3, 2011 - 05:16pm PT
But detonation does. You insisted that detonation can't happen from hydrogen. Remember,

"you can fill a building with hydrogen,
lite a match and you still dont get a detonation"

The engineers are well aware of hydrogen detonation, and design to try to prevent them, and it's why designs improved over Chernobyl, and why they need to keep improving or why you should vote no to nuclear power. But to say they are completely excluded from consideration is silly.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Dec 3, 2011 - 05:35pm PT
http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/nuregs/contract/cr5525/#pub-info[/quote]

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/nuregs/contract/cr3468/[/quote]


For the past few years, the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission has sponsored research at Sandia National Laboratories addressing the combustion characteristics and flammability limits of combustible atmospheres that might occur inside containment during a loss-of-coolant accident inside a pressurized water reactor (PWR). Combustion of certain hydrogen:air:steam atmospheres could, at least hypothetically, threaten the integrity of the containment structure. To assist in the resolution of these issues, a series of 239 hydrogen:air:steam combustion experiments was performed in a 5.6 m3 vessel.

I can't speak to older designs but the new designs have been studies by the NRC. Quite a bit of work done at National Labs. Furthermore, nuclear waste processing facilities have done a lot of studies on hydrogen mitigation.
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