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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 28, 2008 - 09:18am PT
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I don't think having SB climbed by lots of climbers to admire their greatness was ever the goal.
Climbing has always had a lot of routes that stand there aloof and say "This is badass, don't even bother to think about this climb unless you are ready to be badass."
SB is certainly in that class. I think climbs that demand respect and put all us mortals in our place are a good thing. I like knowing that I'm a good climber and yet that there are places I have no business going. Where are the badasses of today, the Sharma's and whoever the flavor of the magazine is?
Does this mean they're not great climbers? No. Does this mean they're not skilled enough, brave enough, ballsy enough to stand next to Walt, Dave and Scott? Probably.....What's wrong with them knowing that there's a place they probably don't belong also? Nothing.
This is not a condemnation of GU, but a defense of Southern Belle. That said, I remind you again that someone can feel the door open to creating the easiest aid bolt ladder on Half Dome back there because all these pro-GU arguments can be used just as well for them.
We can't have a whole face monopolized by these death routes, can be read as we can't have a whole face monopolized by these 5.11-5.12 free climbs. We only want to leave a climb with great bolts that will last forever, that will be climbed by lots of people that will agree what a great location our bolt ladder goes up.
This, in turn, is not a condemnation of Sean and Doug and their co-climbers. I am only interested in the larger question of our future direction.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 28, 2008 - 10:07am PT
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Survival wrote
"SB is certainly in that class. I think climbs that demand respect and put all us mortals in our place are a good thing. I like knowing that I'm a good climber and yet that there are places I have no business going. Where are the badasses of today, the Sharma's and whoever the flavor of the magazine is? "
There are just as many badasses today. Moonlight Buttress was just free-soloed and recently Astroman and the Rostrum were soloed in the same day. Why do folks in this thread keep asking what happened to the good ol, bold ol days when it's clearly not true.
You say you're not condemning Doug and Sean but this thread exists because some are doing exactly that. Coz has clearly done it, in as respectful a way as somebody is likely to condemn somebody.
It's likely to be either "live and let live" or drill a bolt in the one or two stances available per pitch. Somebody go climb the dang thing and tell us whether drilling on stance/hook every 10-20 feet is possible or not. If it's not possible, we really are debating whether we want all the routes up there to be museum pieces for those without family or care for life to do.
What percentage of routes on a face or area do we really want to reserve for the death-defliers? (who don't seem to care to defy death very often if you think about it)
Your post asks who the badasses are today?. I'd ask "who the bad asses were back in Coz's day" when this supposedly fine route went up? If folks were so bold and proud back then, why didn't they climb the damn route back in the good old days? Coz and Dave weren't the only ones on the top of their game back then.
There are folks posting on this thread who could have done Southern Belle back then and some arguably even better and bolder than they were. Why didn't they do the route?
I'll tell you why, defying death might seem worthwhile for the glory of a first ascent, but not for the guys who come after
... except if you're Dean Potter. (some might argue he has to please his sponsors, or himself, with boldness because so many other climbers crank at a much harder grade)
This argument., to paraphrase: "I like knowing there are better climbers than me and thinking in my mind that their badass route exists somewhere." If that's so important, let the badass free solo routes and we can look up to that. Then the glory story will exist forever and the rock will still exist for those who perhaps have a wife, or a kid, or aren't angsty enough to trust their life to a 5.12 smear.
Peace
Karl
Edit: I think that Coz is just hurt because Southern Belle is his greatest testament to himself and now there's a route next to it that's just as pretty and not so stuck up.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Apr 28, 2008 - 10:22am PT
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Sean and Doug.
Thanks for the inspiration; awesome adventure.
Thanks for the time involve to put up this wild new route.
Thanks for the money spent out of your own pocket;...it aint' cheap.
Thanks for the cool pics to thrill us.
Thanks for stimulating our climbing world to have conversations that are sometimes soul searching.
Thanks for being away from your loved ones during your adventures;....lots to sacrafice....those of us with children know it's hard to be away from our little ones.
Thanks for creating a route in the style YOU have chosen to climb; afterall, it's your F A.
Thanks for trying to have civil conversations with others who find your climb controversal;.....everyone does lots of things in their life (both on and off the rocks) that is considered controversal.
Thanks for, once again, showing us that to think "big" and you get a "big" adventure.
Thanks for using stainless steel bolts.
I just wanted to say thanks for the good stuff that this climb represents;....as for the negetive stuff generated from this climb.....look and you will find them easily. The Southern Belle is an awesome climb and has it's place;....but I believe there is room for others. Diversity can be embraced.....as a kindergarten teacher, I see all sorts of forms of life;....I try to love them all.....no matter how strange, different, or even "creepy" some seem. I'm not saying I agree with every aspect of your ascent personally,...but I do find much of it very facinating, interesting, wild, and awesome.....and to that I say Bravo! Having 3 infants at home has helped me to appreciate adventures I had in the past, and adventures I look forward to in the future.....both on and off the crags. If you find this climb and it's style of FA to your liking (And you are experienced, motivated, and talented enought to climb such a route), Go do it; I'm sure you will have a grand time. If you don't find this climb and it's FA style to your liking, then don't do the route and go climb something else somewhere else. I do alot of FA's myself, and I've pissed off enough people to know that I'm just doing my thing, and when you create, you piss people off;......I don't get too bent about it....now a days I'm just way happy to have a day or two at the crags every now and again.....Climbing is still a blast for me......Climb on.....
Todd Gordon
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 28, 2008 - 10:31am PT
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To even begin to think that someone is climbing to defy death is 1000 light years away from the mark.
A statement such as that is pure speculation and shows poor fund of knowledge.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 28, 2008 - 10:33am PT
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Thank you Werner.
Karl,
Soloing Moonlight Buttress or Astro/Rostrum in a day isn't "death defying"?
You don't have a problem with one form of "death defying", but you do with another.(SB) Because there's a few bolts on it? Nobody said that todays hotties can't solo there either.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 28, 2008 - 10:39am PT
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Werner wrote
"To even begin to think that someone is climbing to defy death is 1000 light years away from the mark.
A statement such as that is pure speculation and shows poor fund of knowledge."
Your claim to know what other climbers are climbing for is just as speculative and so is your claim to know about my fund of knowlege.
In addition, you take a figurative statement and try to make it literal. You know what I meant by "death defying" so why twist it and turn it into a "wise retort?"
Peace
Karl
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 28, 2008 - 10:46am PT
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If you feel the need for some soul searching or to prove what a bad ass you are just go solo something. Put up sketchy routs on gear or whatever but once you put drill to stone you should make darn shure that you put up a quality rout and not a piece of crap sketch fest. Few things more selfish in the rock climbing world than drilling a bunch of holes and laying claim to a rout that no one will ever climb because its x rated. There is nothing wrong with a spicy rout but if your intention is to put up a death rout then fer christs sake don't bother drilling holes in the rock.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 28, 2008 - 11:39am PT
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People keep thinking guys who climb at a high level and run it out are doing it maybe on purpose to create a so called death route, stupid ass speculation.
They are just seeing that idea from their safe distance sitting in a chair at home with their minds running loose and uncontrolled.
Example:
I asked Kauk years ago why they didn't place a bolt on that scary face on Geek Towers. He said he was just climbing along and felt fine. Suddenly the next party comes along and sh'its in their pants and thinks he's some badass climber and didn't care for the rest of the world.
There were many such instances in the past with many differnt people on various routes.
Defy Death, means to challenge death directly. Evil knievel death defier?
If that held true he would have just jumped straight into a brick wall with his motorcycle and claimed before hand that he was above the stringed laws of material nature, death itself.
And stop assuming everything you read here is some so called wise explanation or argument. More speculation.
Opinions are just that, opinions, I could be just totaly full of sh'it for all I or you know.
We have to gauge everything to the Absolute standard to come to the complete conclusion.
Do you all want to go there .......?
That's the real summit and goal in the climb.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 28, 2008 - 01:00pm PT
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Having read each and every post in this thread (yes, every post - knott just skimming through),
I feel that I am thusly qualified to make the following statement...
As we approach the 2000th post, a lot of folks are going to be jockeying for the coveted
number 2000. However, I feel that this milestone should be reached in good style.
Posting a bunch of consecutive Bullshít Filler Posts™ is a far worse violation (rape?)
of this thread than posting something substantive that happens to land at the lucky
spot at precisely the right time, IMKSHO (In My Knott So Humble Opinion)...
Please carry on in good style - the world is watching!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 28, 2008 - 01:03pm PT
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I loaded this whole thread into one browser window and tried to copy and paste it into Microcrap Word so see what a printed page count and word count would be, but it crashed my laptop every time.
Somebody with better technology report back so we can know if this is a grade V or Grade VI thread.
At least, it's the MOAT!
(Mother Of All Threads)
and yeah, Matt, there's no actual glory in capturing 2000 by force!
PEace
Karl
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 28, 2008 - 01:08pm PT
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WB your right it is all just speculation but that is the taco for you. Seriously I do know what its like to just climb allong and have fun and end up scareing the piss out of other folks who don't have the same concept of fun. That is not what I am talking about. I am talking about those times when you know damn well that you are pushing limits and that your rout is going to be a statement/ challenge to your peers and you can't tell me that never happens without being full of poo yourself. Put up one of those challange/ ego routs and INMOP you need to ask yourself if that is really the legacy you want to leave behind or would you rather be the guy who is known for putting up great routs?
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Apr 28, 2008 - 01:13pm PT
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Thanks Todd Gordon for having some perspective and balance in your life. Others would do well to take notice !
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 28, 2008 - 01:18pm PT
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Werner wrote: We have to gauge everything to the Absolute standard to come to the complete conclusion.
Do you all want to go there .......?
That's the real summit and goal in the climb.
No we don't want to go there...we are struggling here enough. :)
Crack wrote: Thanks Todd Gordon for having some perspective and balance in your life. Others would do well to take notice !
Having a wife and children can do that.
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morphus
Mountain climber
Angleland
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Apr 28, 2008 - 01:21pm PT
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i'd just like to contribute to this historic thread
is this the biggest supertopo thread ever?
has LEB contributed yet? i think we should know what she thinks about this issue
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Apr 28, 2008 - 01:26pm PT
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"Do you all want to go there .......?"
No thanks Werner! Been trying to steer clear of those damn absolute standards my whole life !!
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Apr 28, 2008 - 01:32pm PT
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yap
yap
yap
wankwankwank
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 28, 2008 - 01:43pm PT
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Yo wrote
"yap
yap
yap
wankwankwank"
Yeah, why do people post on the internet anyway? This would be a lot better forum if people would quit their damn typing eh?
which of your 1872 supertopo postings do you consider most worthy?
Peace
Karl
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Apr 28, 2008 - 02:04pm PT
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I'd have to say #785 was a real highpoint.
(wank)
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 28, 2008 - 02:16pm PT
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"As we approach the 2000th post, a lot of folks are going to be jockeying for the coveted
number 2000. However, I feel that this milestone should be reached in good style.
Posting a bunch of consecutive Bullshít Filler Posts™ is a far worse violation (rape?)
of this thread than posting something substantive that happens to land at the lucky
spot at precisely the right time, IMKSHO (In My Knott So Humble Opinion)..."
that right there is a total bullshit filler post!
=)
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Apr 28, 2008 - 02:17pm PT
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I feel so darned ignorant on the subject at hand. If I'm climbing a route and come across a bolt, what do I do to identify it as a bolt that was placed from a stance, a bol that was placed while hanging on aid gear, or a bolt placed from a top rope?
Also, when I'm climbing a long runout section of a climb, what do I do to determine if the FA was a serious and talented climber who didn't notice the runout, if the FA was a cheap bastard and just didn't want to spend the money or had run out of money and was saving the next bolt for later, or if the FA was an arrogant jerk who wanted to create a death-route and only placed one or two bolts to keep anyone else from ever adding any more (since doing it free-solo would mean that there would be no proof of the FA and anyone else could bolt how they pleased)?
Maybe I should take up a different sport like football or even golf where there are less rules.
Dave
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