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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Aug 22, 2011 - 05:23pm PT
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Just like you can't objectively provide a list of the "best books" without having read every book ever written, which is impossible.
Whenever you see someone's "best of" lists you have to consider the source's breadth of knowledge and experience. So a "best books" list from someone that is well-read will carry more weight.
Has anyone climbed more El Cap routes than Ammon? I've speculated that he's probably climbed more El Cap routes than anyone else, living or dead, but I don't know for sure.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Aug 22, 2011 - 05:30pm PT
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Really not that complicated. Ethics are the consensus beliefs. Style is the application of those beliefs.
They're related in this context.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Aug 22, 2011 - 05:32pm PT
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No one CAN do a second ascent of Turning Point. Steve Grossman never released a topo. So even if you tried to repeat Turning Point, you would probably be putting up a new route that is in similar location but different from it.
Also, Steve claimed that the lower pitches need to be retrofitted prior to any repeat and insists that this be left in his hands. There is no indication that this has happened.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1023273/Steve-Grossman-care-to-reflect-for-us-on-Turning-Point
The lower free pitches were established with a belayer and no chalk. These pitches need to be retrofitted BY ME before they are remotely reasonable for a repeat. I should be able in the process to produce an all free start to the Free Blast at 5.12a or so. I have to respectfully ask people to stay off the route if they are not up for the demands of the lower pitches. These pitches are the reason that the route remains unrepeated in its entirety.
I have never released a topo because I have held out some hope that this route and my typical micronutting efforts might survive some repeats if my climbing style is better understood and respected. With so many wall climbers willing to chisel and stuff copperheads into everything they see, my concern is well justified.
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
California
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Aug 22, 2011 - 05:34pm PT
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They [Ammon and Kait] say call WOS "the hardest route on El Capitan." Not "a hard route." Not "one of the hardest routes. "THE HARDEST ROUTE."
Just for the record, I have NEVER claimed this. LOL
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 22, 2011 - 05:40pm PT
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That definition of style and ethics is different from almost everyone I've ever talked to about it.
In my experience most people think of climbing style and ethics the way Mountaineering: The Freedom of the Hills describes them.
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Aug 22, 2011 - 06:00pm PT
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Hey Richard,
Well, I have to admit my scenario is a made up story based on my impressions from occasionally reading through this and the other threads. But if you think it is a good story, maybe I will keep using it.
I have never read your book, maybe some excerpts, but of course many of your posts. I usually enjoy reading your posts, though I often disagree with your reasoning or viewpoints.
Two guys persevere in their quest to spiritually introspect in the crucible of hard climbing, despite dogs pissing on trees and an even harder route than they had bargained for. They leave a route behind that they themselves are unable to judge for subsequent appeal or objective quality This is a story that appeals to me. I can relate to it and find it inspiring. I did this thing and I don't know if it is any good by others standards, but I did it cause I wanted to and it changed me in some ways. These are the things I enjoyed about it and these are the ways I feel it changed me.
The other story, I don't like so much. knowing only that the route they left does not resemble the route the critics (having never seen it) say is there. They spend decades responding to defamation about themselves and the route, and in the end the most strident claims of their critics are finally shown and widely understood to be without merit. or any of that tripe that matters so much to our critics regarding their own routes. I, personally, simply wasn't playing the game that most other FA teams around here are playing. If the route goes away, and if the whole thing fades into obscurity, that's fine by me. All I've really cared about over the decades is to correct the defamation and debunk the liars, because THEY made this personal. And even as recently as today, the likes of SG continue to make this personal.
It is not a very inspiring story to me. I have not walked a millimeter in your shoes, but it seems to me that all of us face challenges and hurtful criticisms in various ways. I have a sister who, when she is mad at me, which is a lot, hurls any hurtful accusation at me that can come to her mind. Many are off the mark, but some are accurate. They all hurt. Should I take the time to logically disprove her every statement? Would that make everything fine?.
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Aug 22, 2011 - 06:11pm PT
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Thanks for the compliment Deuce. I usually feel like I chime in just as everyone is going to bed. Then my hours of thinking about some subject feel wasted. Probably wasted anyway, but at least the feeling is different.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Aug 22, 2011 - 06:14pm PT
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No, Paul, you shouldn't bother disproving every misstatement she makes. But let's hold the analogy on point, shall we?
Instead of her SAYING hurtful things in a closed context from which you can easily escape, she publicly says hurtful and untrue things about you in public contexts. She basically incites riot (and I'll support that statement if necessary) and incites gangs of people to surround you in public places, threaten you with violence and property damage, and then follows you everywhere in groups to hurl garbage and shyte down on you. Then she engages in yet more public and untruthful tirades against you, publishing in books and magazines, holding you up for public ridicule. Everywhere you go, groups of people gather around you to threaten you and call you foul names. This goes on for decades and includes defamation in virtually every form of public media, so that there is no escape within the community, as she and her gang of well-connected critics ensure that the public opinion sees ONLY her "take" on you.
Oh, and then, for years and years, every time to try to defend yourself, the herd tells you to "get over it" and that you are "too defensive." And your even trying to call attention to the PRINCIPLE of the thing and the ongoing multi-decade nature of it is recast as over-sensitivity, as though this was a one-time insult that you just don't have the character to "get over" like a normal person would.
Even now that story sounds like whining, which it really cannot sound any other way. But I'm honestly completely unemotional as I write it. There are just some objective facts here about how we were treated. Our story (uninspiring to you or whatever) is fact, and it really doesn't correlate with your analogy at all.
Thanks for saying that you enjoy my contributions, even when you usually don't agree. "Agreement" really isn't my goal in most cases. Something like understanding will go far enough. At times I think that perhaps you're almost there.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 22, 2011 - 06:16pm PT
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The one about turning the other cheek may apply. Soon enough the facts will hopefully speak for themselves. Or is that just theory?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Aug 22, 2011 - 06:23pm PT
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Yeah, Mighty, this is where the rubber meets the road with that principle. I'm sure you don't want a theology lesson, so I'll spare you. But when there is a principle of systematic abuse, you go after it.
If it were not the case that as recently as today we were basically told that "boys will be boys," so it's all okay, I'd be a lot more prepared to lay down that particular aspect of the fight. But this "sh|t happens" mentality just doesn't get it.
Besides, strictly speaking, we HAVE been turning the other cheek. We have not responded in kind: no lies, no threats of violence, and no shyting on the critics, among other things. LOL
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Aug 22, 2011 - 06:25pm PT
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ElCapPirate, if that's not you, you might want to have a word with the people running your film web site.
Richard, I don' think you were being overly defensive before when most people (including myself) were taking the "bolt ladder" claims at face value, but that was years ago. Most people are on your side now. There are vocal people attacking you (most obviously Steve and Mimi) but they're in a minority now.
Also, you're never going to get everyone to fully agree with you. Your route was of a very different style than most of those in the Valley at the time. Hooking up a featureless slab instead of linking features. That doesn't appeal to everyone. Someone can say, I don't care how much damage is done to the rock as long as you're just lining natural features--but I don't like routes just going up slabs. That's just their preference.
Again, I wonder if the reception had been different if the route was on similar slab in the Meadows rather than in the Valley. I think that it would be. The Meadows are full of run-out bolted slab climbs.
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Gene
climber
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Aug 22, 2011 - 06:41pm PT
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Anything new posted here in the last few weeks?
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yo
climber
Mudcat Spire
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Aug 22, 2011 - 06:45pm PT
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Gene
climber
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Aug 22, 2011 - 06:46pm PT
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Thanks, Yo,
Thought so.
g
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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Aug 22, 2011 - 06:49pm PT
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Anything new posted here in the last few weeks?
madbolter1 posted a snippet about grannysex.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Aug 22, 2011 - 08:04pm PT
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Heh, well, if you think a civil lawsuit is equivalent to the tactics employed by our opponents, they I guess I've considered "not turning the other cheek" (by some measure). Didn't quite seem like the same thing to me. But to each his own.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Aug 22, 2011 - 08:05pm PT
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Crank, I guess now I see where the level needs to be. LOL
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Aug 22, 2011 - 10:57pm PT
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You're entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.
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Mimi
climber
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Aug 22, 2011 - 11:14pm PT
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graniteclimber, you ignorant slut:
"Would WOS have been received differently if it had been put up in the Meadows instead of in the Valley? What if it was put up in the exact same style but went up a steep slab on Fairview?"
John Bachar would have walked up to the base and asked them nicely to please leave. The situation would have been different and much more decisive.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Aug 22, 2011 - 11:27pm PT
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Yeah, John would have been swinging on those guys but quick!
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