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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Aug 22, 2011 - 12:47pm PT
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So Coz, in the photo above your post, which cat would you be?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Aug 22, 2011 - 01:00pm PT
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Being able to admit he was wrong makes Robbins not only a great climber, but also a great man.
Greatness is treasured because of its rarity. If every pebble was a jewel, jewels wouldn't be special. You can't expect a lump of coal to shine like a diamond.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Aug 22, 2011 - 01:17pm PT
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That is one of the greatest photos I've ever seen. Thanks for posting that!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 22, 2011 - 02:11pm PT
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...what will Ammon and Kait say?...
I'd say the number of days they spent on the route, and the whippers Mom related up-thread, speak for themselves regardless of whatever else Ammon and Kait are graciously willing to share about the tale.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 22, 2011 - 03:39pm PT
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at this point it does not really matter how many bolts or alterations there are....FACT: SG and Mimi have shown their true colors and they arent pretty.
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MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
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Aug 22, 2011 - 03:48pm PT
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The latest small climbing films have been a let down.
The Diamond was alright but like the History channel.
THE DISCIPLES OF GILL was truly lame. Really, Pat Ament hanging with his daughter and talking about how great he was and a great age to climb. What a sleeper.
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Aug 22, 2011 - 03:56pm PT
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Richard wrote:
Fourth, what IS effective, and what has always been effective in setting the bar high is for high-bar stories to circulate throughout the climbing community. Positive reinforcement is always most effective, if the "society" you are trying to behavior modify is basically rational. And if not, well, there's not enough "cops" on the planet. See point (2) above.
I like to say this same sort of thing all the time. "Focus on solutions, not the conflict." "Look for the path rather than the obstacles". But I frequently violate the concept. Yesterday my son brought a friend on a little adventure. The friend was wearing prescription glasses. "You are going to lose those glasses." I make retainers for the glasses with some cord. The boys decide not to wear helmets which was not objectionable to me, but.... "You are going to lose those glasses. When you hit the water they will blow right off the top of your head." Apparently I went on about it.
My son looks at me and says, "Always the naysayer, never with the solutions." !!!!! Then he offered a solution. I was man enough to accept the comment and go with the solution offered. It was a good solution, but not quite good enough. A few hours later the glasses were lost to some bottomless pool. "We should have tied the glasses to the lifejacket." my son offered. Learning is a hit and miss, evolutionary process.
Seems to me that Wings of Steel is an odd story right now and only "high bar" and inspiring to the few true believers. It is a story about two faithful and righteous boys who follow their quest despite the horrible persecution of the Yosemite Heathen. They persevere and establish a route so important and so brilliant that the heathen are unable to climb it or even comprehend it. It is a good story for church service and religious revivals. But since many of us here are heathen or friends of the heathen, it does not play so well or inspire us. We see Richard's intelligence and perseverance on full display, but also his many negative qualities, his amazing ability to rankle and annoy and generate controversy out of almost nothing. (Not that he is alone in these qualities) It appears to me that the controversy is entirely about personalities and has little to do with the climb. It is the faithful vs the heathen.
For the climb itself to become a good story and to be judged a good climb, the rock has to become the story. It will be a good climb when people start reporting things like, "When I kept looking at the rock for long enough, I started seeing these subtle and amazing differences in texture. Then we realized we could climb here, but not over there. We were balancing and dancing up these cool little edges and bumps. It is a little like route such and such, but ya gotta try it to see what I mean. We were on pitch x and I was engrossed in the quality of the movements."
When people start enjoying the route for itself, then it will be a good route.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Aug 22, 2011 - 04:04pm PT
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Would WOS have been received differently if it had been put up in the Meadows instead of in the Valley? What if it was put up in the exact same style but went up a steep slab on Fairview?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Aug 22, 2011 - 04:31pm PT
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It is a story about two faithful and righteous boys who follow their quest despite the horrible persecution of the Yosemite Heathen. They persevere and establish a route so important and so brilliant that the heathen are unable to climb it or even comprehend it. It is a good story for church service and religious revivals.
That IS a good story, Paul. I wonder who wrote that version of it. Wasn't me. The book I wrote has many passages that you seem to be quoting from in your section about the little edges and what it was like to feel them and move on them. And, because I'm a spiritual man, I tied our ascent to spiritual themes.
The story I have written, even here on the taco has never included such themes or phrases as "so important and so brilliant."
And you minimize the "horrible persecution" quite tritely, but, then, you haven't walked a millimeter in our shoes or had, for example, an aimed full bag of shyte explode all over you. Yet, even having walked every step of the way, I wouldn't have characterized it as "horrible." There are many truly horrible things done in the world, and our experiences were far from those things! There's a lot of room between "horrible" and "enjoyable." Somewhere down the scale from "horrible" and far, far up the scale from "enjoyable" is how we felt about the "persecution."
One problem with accounts like yours is that you seem to insist on a hard dichotomy between "trivial" and "horrible," so that when I deny its triviality, you leap straight to "horrible." That's a straw man tactic that's not legitimate.
So, to sum up, I've never told a story that resembles the one you tell, of "horrible persecution," "heathens," or of an "important and brilliant ascent." The story I've always told is much more pedestrian than that:
Two guys persevere in their quest to spiritually introspect in the crucible of hard climbing, despite dogs pissing on trees and an even harder route than they had bargained for. They leave a route behind that they themselves are unable to judge for subsequent appeal or objective quality, knowing only that the route they left does not resemble the route the critics (having never seen it) say is there. They spend decades responding to defamation about themselves and the route, and in the end the most strident claims of their critics are finally shown and widely understood to be without merit.
There. That's the happy ending for me. I don't need the route to be "great" or "brilliant" or "ahead of its time" or any of that tripe that matters so much to our critics regarding their own routes. Seeking that sort of thing wasn't why we did it, and we got from the route what we went up there to get. How the ROUTE is now judged is pretty insignificant to me. I don't much care if others find it appealing to climb. I, personally, simply wasn't playing the game that most other FA teams around here are playing. If the route goes away, and if the whole thing fades into obscurity, that's fine by me. All I've really cared about over the decades is to correct the defamation and debunk the liars, because THEY made this personal. And even as recently as today, the likes of SG continue to make this personal.
Don't imagine for a moment that the last five years of fighting on the taco have been enjoyable for me. But a review of the history of the posts will show that we have only RESPONDED to critics telling lies. Clear our NAMES, personally, of the defamation; and at that point I don't give a rip about how the route is evaluated. I was done with the ROUTE almost 30 years ago.
That's why I have no problem with Deuce's opinion about the route. It's his opinion, and he certainly entitled to have it and share it around. It's the other aspects that always creep in and muddy the waters.
So your references to "important and brilliant" just offer another example of how the "story" twists and turns without resembling the true story. And that is indeed "odd," as you put it.
Oh, final note, I haven't called our critics "Heathen." Ironically, I continue to call them this generation's "Valley Christians." Self-policing indeed! It is to laugh.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Aug 22, 2011 - 04:38pm PT
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So, Richard, it the cute cat photo above, which cute cat would you be?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Aug 22, 2011 - 04:45pm PT
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Probably that blurry, lighter-green blotch up and left from the left cat's ear.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Aug 22, 2011 - 04:46pm PT
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Oh, I posted just as you edited, Mark. Now you're limiting it to cats! Oh, that makes it much harder.
Can I appeal to false dichotomy?
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Aug 22, 2011 - 04:47pm PT
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Okay, I'll make it easy on you.
In the Cute Kitty photo above, which cute kitty represents you and which cute kitty represents Mark?
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Aug 22, 2011 - 04:51pm PT
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Paul Matzen gets it! Best post of the entire thread.
'Struth, if it turns out to be a quality line appreciated by the consensus, then it will reveal the weaknesses of the ethics of the day.
What is apparent to me is the over-personalisation of the general attitude that was/is prevalent in a place like Yosemite. Jim Dunn got bucketloads of grief for attempting a new line without the proper "experience", but he just went and did it anyway. Cosmos has since become a classic. Jardine also got grief for chipping holds on the Nose to force a free route based on his abilities at the time; thankfully that practice has been extinguished for the most part. It's all part of the process.
To me, big walls aren't a place where one tries to "make a mark" in difficulty, it's about finding a natural line and climbing it in good style.
The slab might someday be considered a viable line, and the style recognised as valid. For me, it wasn't. Now loop back to Paul's post, which is what it's really all about.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
or some such
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Aug 22, 2011 - 04:54pm PT
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Man, I thought this was over & done with...Shows what I know, huh?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Aug 22, 2011 - 05:07pm PT
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Thanks for helping me out, Jim! Whew!
And to Mark: yeah, what he said.
if it turns out to be a quality line appreciated by the consensus, then it will reveal the weaknesses of the ethics of the day.
Again the conflation between style and ethics.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 22, 2011 - 05:11pm PT
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IIRC, no one has done a second ascent of the Turning Point. Maybe other El Cap routes - PTPP would know. Not to mention that routes vary considerably in terms of length, quality of rock, nature of climbing, etc. So it would be difficult to objectively say that one route or another is the 'hardest'.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Aug 22, 2011 - 05:23pm PT
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Just like you can't objectively provide a list of the "best books" without having read every book ever written, which is impossible.
Whenever you see someone's "best of" lists you have to consider the source's breadth of knowledge and experience. So a "best books" list from someone that is well-read will carry more weight.
Has anyone climbed more El Cap routes than Ammon? I've speculated that he's probably climbed more El Cap routes than anyone else, living or dead, but I don't know for sure.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Aug 22, 2011 - 05:30pm PT
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Really not that complicated. Ethics are the consensus beliefs. Style is the application of those beliefs.
They're related in this context.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Aug 22, 2011 - 05:32pm PT
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No one CAN do a second ascent of Turning Point. Steve Grossman never released a topo. So even if you tried to repeat Turning Point, you would probably be putting up a new route that is in similar location but different from it.
Also, Steve claimed that the lower pitches need to be retrofitted prior to any repeat and insists that this be left in his hands. There is no indication that this has happened.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1023273/Steve-Grossman-care-to-reflect-for-us-on-Turning-Point
The lower free pitches were established with a belayer and no chalk. These pitches need to be retrofitted BY ME before they are remotely reasonable for a repeat. I should be able in the process to produce an all free start to the Free Blast at 5.12a or so. I have to respectfully ask people to stay off the route if they are not up for the demands of the lower pitches. These pitches are the reason that the route remains unrepeated in its entirety.
I have never released a topo because I have held out some hope that this route and my typical micronutting efforts might survive some repeats if my climbing style is better understood and respected. With so many wall climbers willing to chisel and stuff copperheads into everything they see, my concern is well justified.
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