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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Aug 22, 2011 - 01:35am PT
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What's all the hoopla anyways.
El Cap is just another side show on the worlds stage.
I remember the 80 year old woman who had to walk 5 miles every day to collect firewood in Africa just so she could cook to eat .......
A timely and very perceptive post by Werner.
Edit: I wonder what that woman would think reading this. Why do you climb the rock? Is there firewood on top and none on the bottom? Why are you trying to go the hardest way?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Aug 22, 2011 - 01:40am PT
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Mr. and Mrs. Weak Sauce (Mimi and Steve Grossman) are a side show all by themselves.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 22, 2011 - 01:53am PT
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It's pretty funny that so much effort has gone into denigrating the route and it's architects, it served it's intended purpose for a while, but for a while now the bad mouthing has just been creating controversy around and hence interest in the climb. As the truth comes out, and if the climb is revealed to be anything but a botch job (it doesn't have the be the hardest thing on El Cap, just not bolted excessively as claimed) the climb and it's team gets probably more interest and acclaim than the FA team ever could have gotten on their own.
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Meow Now
Trad climber
Emerald City
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Aug 22, 2011 - 02:06am PT
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GraniteClimber,
Are you SkipT?
Your posts annoy me as much as his posts and they are very similar in the personal attacks. What is your problem?
Do you think you are a reporter from the Sports Center with an analysis of each play, uh I mean post?
Now go lick Werner's boots and lay off Mimi, not cool.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Aug 22, 2011 - 02:21am PT
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Mr. and Mrs. Weak Sauce Grossman (Mimi and Steve) like it enough to involve me in their sexual fantasies, so they're getting out of it.
Calling me out for making attacks on Mrs. and Mrs. Weak Sauce is like calling the kettle blacker than the pot. There's no way I could match them. Did you see how they went after Kait's mother!? Weak sauce.
Now lay off SkipT. Not cool!
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Aug 22, 2011 - 07:38am PT
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what, i'm getting grilled for the picture of my friend I choose for the cover of my book? geez.
More to the point, correct--I am not neutral. Not since I learned more about the route and the first ascentionists from this forum. As I've maintained since my first post on this matter, I don't believe the route was put up in good style, both from the number of bolts that were used, and the techniques willfully intended.
That's my opinion. Feel free to disagree.
And though sympathy may occur, everywhere has limits on what one can and cannot do, and Yosemite is no exception. Maybe WOS will turn out to be a testpiece, but if it were't for the attitudes encountered (craping aside), El Cap would be filled with actual bolt ladders. Climber self-policing is like what Winston Churchill said about Democracy--it's the worst form, but better than all the alternatives.
Ammon's made the first step to determine whether or not it will be a testpiece.
Time to wait and see.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Aug 22, 2011 - 08:32am PT
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Top of the morning to you, Deuce.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Aug 22, 2011 - 09:41am PT
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"Without that ultimate. elitist A5 grade..".--Steve Grossman
An A5 rating with God attached to it really gets to this guy, almost as if God is encroaching into Steve's realm of rule.
You aid guys are funny...
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Aug 22, 2011 - 10:57am PT
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Werner-
When you have a moment, would you be willing to have a look at my posts on the 2061-2080 page - the one addressed to you, and the one addressed to Richard? I would very much like to hear your thoughts and I see the potential for a lot of good coming of it. I tried PMing you but I'm not sure if the email was spam filtered or something.
Thanks!
P.S. Here's the link for convenience: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=72849&tn=2060
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 22, 2011 - 10:57am PT
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All eyes are on Ammon and he and Kait are certainly having their day as they should.
Coz- I don't frig my way up anything. Clear enough for you?
Why haven't you done Growing Up if climbing something is prerequisite to having an opinion, which it certainly is not?
You sure attacked those guys,and for what? Using methods and tactics you have already resorted to yourself? If you preview and preprotect, your position is laughable.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 22, 2011 - 11:00am PT
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Steve, the excitement builds: what will Ammon and Kait say? Please hurry, too many sleepless nights already.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Aug 22, 2011 - 11:06am PT
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As I've maintained since my first post on this matter, I don't believe the route was put up in good style, both from the number of bolts that were used, and the techniques willfully intended.
This could be said about your routes too, Middendorf. They're certainly not up to the standards of Mr. and Mrs. Weak Sauce.
but if it were't for the attitudes you encountered (craping aside), El Cap would be filled with actual bolt ladders.
This makes no sense. Middendorf thinks that WOS is an actual bolt ladder, in the face of overwhelming evidence.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 22, 2011 - 11:17am PT
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John knows more about wall climbing and Yosemite history that you ever will Gnome Boy. Ask him a straightforward question about any aspect of the climbs that he has done and he wil give you a direct answer, same as me.
Not the case with Richard and Mark.
Take IQ#1 for example. Did you guys finish WOS where you intended to?
Simple question requiring a yes or no response and.....nothing.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Aug 22, 2011 - 11:18am PT
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if it were't for the attitudes you encountered (craping aside), El Cap would be filled with actual bolt ladders. Climber self-policing is like what Winston Churchill said about Democracy--it's the worst form, but better than all the alternatives.
Certainly you're entitled to your opinion about the route, John. But the above statement is just nutty and laughably so.
First, "policing" in any normal sense bears exactly zero relation to what was done to us. If you want to correlate what was done to us with "policing," then you're working from a totalitarian model of society, in which case your Churchill quote is obscene.
Second, it didn't work! And that approach never works.
Third, people have never been standing in line to put bolt ladders up El Cap. Never! And it's not some dogs pissing on trees attitude that keeps them away.
Fourth, what IS effective, and what has always been effective in setting the bar high is for high-bar stories to circulate throughout the climbing community. Positive reinforcement is always most effective, if the "society" you are trying to behavior modify is basically rational. And if not, well, there's not enough "cops" on the planet. See point (2) above.
Fifth, the "policing" to which you refer has always been selectively employed, demonstrating clearly that it has nothing to do with protecting El Cap as much as protecting the dogs that want to piss on "their" trees. People on the "in" have ever done whatever they wanted to El Cap with impunity, and people on the "out" have ever been subjected to special condemnation.
I guess that because you've been on the "in," it's impossible for you to back out of the elitist mentality and see this generation of Valley Christians for what they are.
"Policing?" Gag. Not!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Aug 22, 2011 - 11:22am PT
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...he wil give you a direct answer, same as me. Not the case with Richard and Mark. Take IQ#1 for example. Did you guys finish WOS where you intended to? Simple question requiring a yes or no response and.....nothing.
What direct answer have you given to a simple question, SG?
Take IQ#1 for example. Have you EVER "modified" the rock in any way in order to make a placement?
Simple question requiring a yes or no response and.....nothing.
Sooo, I guess what you're saying about John's capacity to give a direct answer to a simple question, being the "same as you" and all, is that he simply won't answer a simple and direct question.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Aug 22, 2011 - 11:25am PT
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An ego can be a terrible thing to have, don't you think?
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Aug 22, 2011 - 11:31am PT
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The controvery boils down to one thing, that much is evident after all these years, and after the repeat of the climb. This link should be Steve and Mimi's theme song when they return to El Cap and Wings of Steel. Respect engenders respect.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Zan2BqlAmA&feature=related
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 22, 2011 - 11:36am PT
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Da_Dweeb
What do you want from me?
I can't do anything here.
Let these guys do their thing.
It's not important.
Don't meddle in another mans vice ......
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 22, 2011 - 12:41pm PT
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I don't believe the route was put up in good style, both from the number of bolts that were used, and the techniques willfully intended.
From all accounts of everyone who has been on it it is very bold and it sounds like they used the bare minimum number of bolts possible. So by saying there are too many bolts you are in essence saying the climb itself should not have been done. And by your words we are talking about the now (i.e. after reading about it on the taco), not your thoughts at the time the climb went in. And it's not just that it doesn't interest you so you wouldn't have done it, but no one should have done it under punishment of the climbing community and they acted appropriately (with exception of the shitting) doing everything they could to drive these guys out of the valley and degrade the climb/climbers. Do you really believe that someone who is into slab hooking shouldn't be able to pursue their passion the same as someone linking disconnected cracks systems? This part of the controversy is very similar to the Wall of Early Morning Light. But Robbins got on the climb, experienced it for himself, and his view evolved. Being able to admit he was wrong makes Robbins not only a great climber, but also a great man.
And for the techniques used there would be no ammunition about enhancements if Richard didn't tell us about them in the first place. He could have easily said nothing about them. But he was honest in their methods and this information is used against them, which is fine except when it is claimed they aren't being honest (that's not directed at you Duece). They knocked some crystals off a small portion of the hook placements. In your book you say worse is done (dimples for hooks) and many head or pin placements change the rock. The ethics of climbing mean leaving the rock in as natural a state as possible so future parties get to experience the same challenge nature presented the FA team. So they could have drilled a rivet (damned if you don't), or do what most every climber who drives a pin or places a head does, try to make the placement work while making the least amount of change to the rock (damned if you do).
The route and techniques might not be up to your standards of style. That's fine, but to say no one should be able to climb in a style not deemed acceptable by you or anyone else is myopic. Yes we don't want bolt ladders up el cap, but this route is clearly not that. It's a slab hooking route. Do you really want to say no one should be allowed to do a slab hooking route?
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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Aug 22, 2011 - 12:41pm PT
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Kitten fight!
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