Armed Militia Takes Over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge HQ

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Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Feb 5, 2016 - 09:12am PT
Happiegrrl2: I do agree with your thoughts on Escopet's reply to your question.

Escopeta? In your reply, you also mention:

While maybe not the best example, one that many of us might relate to is in the case of forest fires. The modern approach to keeping people from burning down a forest for example is to weave a web of laws designed to orchestrate the outcome of not burning down the forest. Don't do this, don't do that. Aka: fireworks are outlawed, no campfires, you are required to have spark arresters, steel jacketed bullets are outlawed, climbing gear must be dipped in anti-static coating and so and so forth. The end game, which we are actually starting to see in some cases of society is that virtually everything gets outlawed in an effort to achieve some specific outcome.

I appreciate your addition of anti-static climbing gear is just a little humour, but you are apparently thinking of all those other anti-wildfire laws as un-needed for yourself & your intelligent peers. I do think those onerous regulations are needed for all the idiots that would otherwise cluelessly start fires.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 5, 2016 - 09:25am PT
Statement from Oregon Sheriffs Association


Sheriffs in all 36 Oregon counties have taken an oath to support the Constitution of the United States, the Constitution of Oregon, and the laws thereof. Our oath is our pledge to you, to be conservators of the peace for our citizens, while being respectful of the rights afforded to all of us under the Constitution.
What a great state and nation we live in that allows everyone to express their opinion, hold a sign in protest, lobby for change and live free without fear of retaliation from the government. Our founding fathers created a system of government consisting of three branches: legislative, judicial and executive.
Sheriffs and Sheriff's Offices are part of the executive branch, charged with enforcement of laws as directed by the legislative branch and interpreted by the judicial branch. Under our system of government, the judicial branch is given the authority to interpret the Constitutionality of our laws.
We are a nation of laws, and the executive branch cannot override the laws passed by the legislative branch, nor can we ignore the clear guidance of the judicial branch. There is a process for changing the laws of our great nation and for amending our Constitution, and that process does not involve the armed takeover of government facilities and disruption of an entire community.
We fully support the expression of political opinions, and advocating for change within the legal system – that is what sets our country apart from developing countries where the government is changed by an armed takeover.
Recently, men and women have broken the law and encouraged others to take up arms against our local and federal governments. These individuals have used firearms and their interpretation of the Constitution to justify their criminal behavior. These militia men and women have broken into publicly owned buildings, disrespected Native American heritage and intimidated and harassed local residents and officials.
These men and women are asking for change, and we support their right to challenge our government to make change. However, we do not agree with or support any citizen or elected official who would advocate for change in a manner that includes illegal action, threats of violence, or violence against any citizen of the United States.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 5, 2016 - 09:28am PT
This is the law of common sense, which applies in the court of spirituality. Unfortunately, that doesn't much help when it comes to people who don't have those basic tenets in their life, or do at times and others not.

I'm not talking about the court of spirituality. I'm talking about codifying it in the court of law and prosecuting in keeping with that.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 5, 2016 - 09:29am PT
Escopeta posted
The typical response is "but what about stop signs and speed limits" and such nonsense.

Libertarianism has a hard time dealing with the banality of real life.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 5, 2016 - 09:36am PT
I appreciate your addition of anti-static climbing gear is just a little humour, but you are apparently thinking of all those other anti-wildfire laws as un-needed for yourself & your intelligent peers. I do think those onerous regulations are needed for all the idiots that would otherwise cluelessly start fires.

All the more reason to make it clear. I contend that a web of hopelessly confusing laws that leaves everyone's freedom snuffed out while trying to engineer some specific outcome is worse than a simple law stating its illegal to burn other people's property.

Arguing that people are too stupid to follow a basic law as an excuse to make it more complex and liberty-restricting for everyone else is not agreeable to me.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Feb 5, 2016 - 09:36am PT
Escopeta is showing the feebleness of his philosophy. Weak.
If you can't follow a thought to its logical outcome then maybe you shouldn't talk so much.

Um, can I burn tires in my yard?
Can I raise dogs for food?
Can I dispose of my batteries in the lake?

Think more. Spew less.

( your constant confusion might be a sign that you're not as smart as you pretend.)
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 5, 2016 - 09:36am PT
Don't hit people

So what qualifies as a "hit?"

Does a slap count?

What if you get hit more than once?

What if you hit someone with a gun? Or a bullet?

What are the punishments?

Who gets to decide? The person who was hit?


Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 5, 2016 - 09:47am PT

So what qualifies as a "hit?"

Does a slap count?

What if you get hit more than once?

What if you hit someone with a gun? Or a bullet?

What are the punishments?

Who gets to decide? The person who was hit?


The court still handles that just as they do today. But having a bunch of laws that makes it illegal for people to make a fist, or swing their arms around in an effort to engineer out the possibility of people getting hit only serves to limit the actions of free people and not reduce the amount of people that get hit.

Edit: Furthermore, to follow that to its logical end, when you find yourself flailing on a climb and your arm swings around with a fist, you are now a criminal. It's only up to the powers that be to decide if they want to arrest you for the victimless crime that violated no ones rights. Hope you have money for the payola. For a bunch of people that despise how the rich have all the advantages, you sure fight awful hard at setting up a system that ensures their dominance.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Feb 5, 2016 - 09:51am PT
Blah blah blah. You make proclamations based on a foundation of ignorance. You seem unable to learn but instead lean on your own confusion.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 5, 2016 - 10:00am PT
Flip flop,

I think your talents are needed over on the pole smoker thread.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Feb 5, 2016 - 10:01am PT
franky, interesting post. Did you get that from admiralty court case law? :-)
dirtbag

climber
Feb 5, 2016 - 10:04am PT
I deal with vague and not so vague laws all day. It's a constant tension, with no cookie cutter solutions as to which is better. Many laws are vague that were meant to be specific: only through implementation are problems revealed.

Vagueness allows flexibility, true, but the main problem with vague laws is that they are often unenforceable. How can you put someone in jail for something when it isn't spelled out exactly what the violation is? Or, if no one can agree what the violation is?

Law Enforcement has this problem all the time. Defendants will point out ambiguity in a law and bam, the case gets dropped.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 5, 2016 - 10:05am PT
Escopeta posted
The basis tenet is that I believe that if you protect people's "person, property and happiness" then social order is derived from the freedom to live your life how you see fit vs being told what outcome is desired by someone other than you.

Again, the problem here is that you live a relatively privileged life compared to many others in this country and many of the laws that you think are prohibitive were created to protect those less advantaged people. Many of the others were made to protect "person, property and happiness" but you usually can't protect one person's happiness without stepping on another's. That's why we created representative government to try to ameliorate those conflicts with the least amount of authoritarianism.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 5, 2016 - 10:15am PT
Come on Esco
you should be able to explain it better than that
Try harder, please

I'm still not getting it, I am more free w/out the Government that protects ME????

What if I go to Somalia, and their Gov. doesn't protect me and I get eaten by roaming hoards of wild dogs, or shot by some punk kid, since everyone has to carry guns to protect themselves from each other

You call that Freedom?

That is what you're telling us.
Maybe that's what you want, the rest of don't want that type of freedom.

Conclusion, failed libertarian ideology based on fear
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 5, 2016 - 10:17am PT
Pete the freedom fighter backing down the scary FBI agents.


HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Feb 5, 2016 - 10:18am PT
Craig- That is a certain type of freedom, yes. I think as climbers we can all relate to the freedom to be able to risk ones life and wellness against a challenge. It stops being freedom when it's now longer a choice, in my opinion.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 5, 2016 - 10:24am PT
Apologies. Happiness was absolutely not the word I had intended. Wasn't intended and I missed it on my proof read. I have edited the initial post with notation. Thanks.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Feb 5, 2016 - 10:25am PT
By extension of Estupido's thinking, he should be allowed to play with fireworks during high fire danger. Laws are in place to protect us from dimwits.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 5, 2016 - 10:28am PT
Flip Flop, you're wrong, that falls under don't burn other peoples stuff.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 5, 2016 - 10:29am PT
I'm still not getting it, I am more free w/out the Government that protects ME????

If you have subcontracted your personal protection out to the government, you are inherently not free.

No where have I said that freedom is a panacea for any threat you might encounter in life.

Only that it's more free. As I said before, the size of your cage doesn't dictate the amount of freedom you enjoy.


Edit: added the word personal to further delineate the difference between personal protection and protection of the country.
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