Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
|
|
|
Dec 22, 2012 - 10:05am PT
|
So we've established "Guns in homes kill far more kids than they defend" is bullsh#t.
Nobody can show the numbers on both sides to prove it.
What number of "kids they defend" are you working off of? Come up with that number, then we can compare the two numbers to see if one actually is "far more" than the other.
I still think it's bullsh#t.
There are several studies that look at defensive gun use in the home (and elsewhere). All are criticized heavily by folks who don't buy it. The reason is that measuring 'defensive gun use' is as difficult as using a measuring tape to measure cigarette smoke.
But measuring concepts like that is a part of research so each researcher has to set parameters as to how they measure defensive gun use (DGU). And others inevitably don't like that.
For example, guy in house hears a noise outside, grabs gun, runs outside, sees nothing. Is this a case of successful DGU?
A guy is in the house and notes the movement sensor light goes on out back, grabs gun, runs out sees a raccoon run off. Is this a case of DGU?
Guy hears voices out front, grabs gun, runs outside, sees two teens in the street talking. Teens look and leave. Is this DGU?
Guy is in mall and sees a shady character. Guy lifts up his shirt to shown shady guy he is armed. Shady guy leaves. Is this DGU?
Guy hears someone coming in his house, grabs gun, shoots suspect to discover it's his brother. Is this DGU?
Guy's neighbor (who is his sister) calls to say someone is breaking in her house. Guy grabs gun, runs over and shoot and kills the masked burglar. Unmasks him to discover it is his own son (true story). Is this DGU?
Guy has internet foe make threat to him. Tells mean internet guy if he comes to his house, he'll kill him. Internet foe never shows up. Is this DGU?
Which if any of these will determine the results of the research and may or may not support that there is more DGU than other gun incidents (injuries, murder, suicide).
But honestly, if someone could magically come up with the perfect definitions, measurement and results, would it change anyone's mind? Would those who have guns in the house get rid of them? Or would those without guns run out and get them? Doubt either of those would happen.
|
|
Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
|
|
|
Dec 22, 2012 - 10:10am PT
|
The political climate surrounding guns is so intense that studies have been done of studies that have been done about studies. Philip Cook, the director of Duke University's public policy institute, has examined the data behind the 108,000 and the 2.5 million figures and suspects the truth lies somewhere in between. "Many of the basic statistics about guns are in wide disagreement with each other depending on which source you go to," says Cook, a member of the apolitical National Consortium on Violence Research [NCOVR]. "That's been a real puzzle to people who are trying to understand what's going on."
This is a quote from Cook, a colleague of mine on NCOVR, who along with Gary Kleck and a few others do work in this area in criminology. He offers what I think to be the truth of the matter. The finding depends on questions used, measurement, definitions, etc. Again, I'll add, does this finding change anyone's feelings about it? Doubt it. Doubt anyone chooses a gun or not based on the work of criminologists. :)
edit: Some cites on this website if you are interested in reading journal articles: http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html
|
|
Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
|
|
|
Dec 22, 2012 - 10:22am PT
|
When I was in high school I came home late one night opened up the garage to put away my bike. I came into the house and there is my older brother reaching into the gun cabinet and pulling out one of our shotguns.......I asked him what the hell was he doing? He said he heard an intruder in the garage and was arming himself. Interesting that we never ever had any incident of being ripped off, in fact we never even locked our doors. In this case I can say guns in that house made our home much more dangerous. As you might guess he and I have different opinions on gun control.
|
|
Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
|
|
|
Dec 22, 2012 - 10:28am PT
|
Pay teachers 10k more who carry. Maybe that'd get teachers more where they should be paid too. Even though I still don't think teachers should carry at school.
We went through all of this crap after 9/11 when all of the gun nuts were clamoring to arm airline pilots.
Pilots are pilots, not law enforcement officers.
Teachers are teachers, not law enforcement officers.
It is inane to suggest arming teachers. Simply retarded. Anyone who suggests arming teachers is clueless about guns.
You want armed law enforcement officers at school? Fine. Maybe they can also help keep the kids in line. But all you parents had better be prepared to pay the bill, 'cause I ain't.
|
|
tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
|
|
|
Dec 22, 2012 - 11:26am PT
|
Rather than stopping and actually thinking logically, the sheeple on both sides simply react.
Fear said what I have been wondering about for a long time. The difference between Canada and the US.
You have sides. Either one side or the other is in power, but everyone is on a side and after 5000 posts, you can't leave your sides and display critical thinking and solve issues. You are very representative of your country as a whole. If it came down to it (and it has in the past) you simply shoot the citizens 'on the other side' until one side declares victory.
In Canada, we have political hot button topics, but everyone is first and foremost a Canadian. All the finger pointing ends up pointed at the government - a largely detached and independent entity in society led by the fact that we had the Queen as head of state for so long. We just don't have the kind of hateful destructive arguments as a country as a whole over issues because when we differ on opinions we point our fingers at the government, not at each other.
In the US, the republicans are responsible for the NRA, guns are responsible for mass killings, and therefore Ron is responsible for these school kids.
A decade of watching this phenomenon in each country and I've finally figured it out!
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Dec 22, 2012 - 11:48am PT
|
For
private gun ownership
mandatory public service or military
harder driver's license tests
decriminalization of drug possession
more pay for cops and teachers
restoring public land (no grazing, wild horses or burros)
Against
welfare/nanny state
uneducated liptards having a vote
idiots that mishandle firearms
litterbugs and vandals
property tax (you want services? Pay for 'em)
censorship of nudity rather than violence
people that have kids but don't want to spend the time and effort to raise them properly!
So tooth, I am a libertarian. Do I really have to choose a side? Why can't I just sit in the bleachers and watch the game?
|
|
FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
|
|
|
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:04pm PT
|
For
The end of violence.
Treating all living things with dignity.
|
|
John M
climber
|
|
|
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:13pm PT
|
And you have guns. And you've purchased guns and given them to people who couldn't legally have them
Just to be clear, this is incorrect.
|
|
monolith
climber
albany,ca
|
|
|
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:19pm PT
|
He gave a gun he bought from a fed dealer to a guy with a temporary visa. Federally licensed gun dealers are not allowed to sell to someone with a temporary visa.
|
|
John M
climber
|
|
|
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:21pm PT
|
Monolith...Today.. I don't know, but was it illegal back then?
|
|
monolith
climber
albany,ca
|
|
|
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:21pm PT
|
Of course it was.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:25pm PT
|
Mr Villain, there was a time when you would have been called a conservative Democrat.
|
|
tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
|
|
|
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:28pm PT
|
Toker,
You don't fit with the majority of your country, and most importantly, with the majority of your history. There are millions like you. But you aren't the majority, defining mentality of how you broke off from Britain, how you solved what civil war was about, or how your media and current government works.
Feel special since you pointed that out to everyone that you don't fit into the meta-narrative of your country.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:30pm PT
|
Well, maybe (once I figure out what a meta-narrative is,...)
|
|
monolith
climber
albany,ca
|
|
|
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:33pm PT
|
Exchange students don't have green cards, they have temporary visas.
They are here for a defined, limited time, unlike green card holders.
Green card holders are permanent residents, something he clearly was not.
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:34pm PT
|
With Christmas just around the corner, the family that shoots together stays together!
|
|
John M
climber
|
|
|
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:36pm PT
|
Mono,, you had better go back and review the posts,, in the meantime, stop LYING about that situation please.
I'm lost now. But whats new about that. haha. I generally trust what both ken and Monolith say..
http://www.fedcoplaw.com/html/federal_firearms_laws.html
b. Legal Non-Immigrant on a Visa - is prohibited from possessing a firearm or ammo, § 922(g)(5) 10 years, unless an exception or waiver exists under § 922 (y)(2)&(3); if a non-immigrant has an exception or waiver, he must establish residency in a State for 90 consecutive days before purchasing a firearm from an FFL.
Ron says he filled out all of the necessary paper work with the gun dealer. I believe him. As I understand what he said, he didn't buy the gun under his name and then give it to this guy. He went with the guy to the store and bought the gun under the guys name. Paying for it and
helping him fill out the necessary paperwork.
Please correct me if I am wrong Ron.. these arguments take away from the main topic, so I want to clear them up.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:38pm PT
|
WTF!
Oldest son gets air rifle but middle son gets .30-30?
|
|
tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
|
|
|
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:45pm PT
|
Monolith,
I was a student in the US. I had a green card. Your arguments suck. I don't know what your viewpoints/opinions on guns are and am not arguing them.
edit: sorry Ron, I'm going to cost you $5000 now that he won't take the bet!
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!