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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 27, 2015 - 01:39pm PT
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Chiloe, nice work. I wish I had the smarts to check it myself, but I'll leave that to others.
"The last part of your graph... the part showing recent temps above the 2010 high... it's pure fiction."
Question of the day: Does EdwardT have the character to apologize?
Looks like it is my turn to apologize--I jumped to a conclusion and was wrong. I eat my words--for lunch.
They don't taste so bad, though, because I'm washing them down with a Lagunitas IPA.
Cheers,
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Feb 27, 2015 - 01:56pm PT
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Why does your graph (again) show a new high, while the one from Wood for Trees does not?
Because your WFT graph is a moving average. The high point near 2010 is not necessarily the one for calendar year 2010.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Feb 27, 2015 - 01:56pm PT
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"The last part of your graph... the part showing recent temps above the 2010 high... it's pure fiction."
Question of the day: Does EdwardT have the character to apologize?
Looks like it is my turn to apologize--I jumped to a conclusion and was wrong. I eat my words--for lunch.
They don't taste so bad, though, because I'm washing them down with a Lagunitas IPA.
Cheers,
Thank you and Raymond for the catch.
My claim was incorrect. I was wrong.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Feb 27, 2015 - 02:01pm PT
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
Feb 27, 2015 - 01:56pm PT
Because your WFT graph is a moving average. The high point is not necessarily the one for calendar year 2010.
So?
Aren't Chiloe's graphs moving averages of monthly values, too?
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Feb 27, 2015 - 02:06pm PT
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Yes you are right. But if you look at the data, the WFT moving average does not include January, 2015.
The last 12 month anomaly is .6825, while WFT shows .676667
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raymond phule
climber
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Feb 27, 2015 - 02:07pm PT
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The 12 months average from woodfortrees doesn't seem to include the average that stops in january 2015 even though january 2015 is included in their data set. Strange and seems to be a small bug.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Feb 27, 2015 - 02:10pm PT
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. list edate gis12 if year>2009
1921. | Jan2010 .5958333 |
1922. | Feb2010 .6175 |
1923. | Mar2010 .6491666 |
1924. | Apr2010 .67 |
1925. | May2010 .6791667 |
1926. | Jun2010 .6783333 |
1927. | Jul2010 .67 |
1928. | Aug2010 .6683334 |
1929. | Sep2010 .6616666 |
1930. | Oct2010 .6683334 |
1931. | Nov2010 .6708333 |
1932. | Dec2010 .66 |
1933. | Jan2011 .6433333 |
1934. | Feb2011 .6183333 |
1935. | Mar2011 .5933333 |
1936. | Apr2011 .5758333 |
1937. | May2011 .5566667 |
1938. | Jun2011 .5516667 |
1939. | Jul2011 .5633333 |
1940. | Aug2011 .5716667 |
1941. | Sep2011 .5683333 |
1942. | Oct2011 .5641667 |
1943. | Nov2011 .5441667 |
1944. | Dec2011 .5458333 |
1945. | Jan2012 .54 |
1946. | Feb2012 .5391667 |
1947. | Mar2012 .535 |
1948. | Apr2012 .5358334 |
1949. | May2012 .5558333 |
1950. | Jun2012 .5591667 |
1951. | Jul2012 .5425 |
1952. | Aug2012 .5316666 |
1953. | Sep2012 .5441667 |
1954. | Oct2012 .5541667 |
1955. | Nov2012 .57 |
1956. | Dec2012 .5691667 |
1957. | Jan2013 .5883333 |
1958. | Feb2013 .5958334 |
1959. | Mar2013 .6016667 |
1960. | Apr2013 .59 |
1961. | May2013 .5766667 |
1962. | Jun2013 .5783333 |
1963. | Jul2013 .58 |
1964. | Aug2013 .5841666 |
1965. | Sep2013 .5883334 |
1966. | Oct2013 .5783333 |
1967. | Nov2013 .5841666 |
1968. | Dec2013 .5966667 |
1969. | Jan2014 .6025 |
1970. | Feb2014 .5958334 |
1971. | Mar2014 .605 |
1972. | Apr2014 .625 |
1973. | May2014 .6441666 |
1974. | Jun2014 .645 |
1975. | Jul2014 .6433333 |
1976. | Aug2014 .6541667 |
1977. | Sep2014 .6616667 |
1978. | Oct2014 .6766667 |
1979. | Nov2014 .6666667 |
1980. | Dec2014 .6766667 |
1981. | Jan2015 .6825 |
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Feb 27, 2015 - 02:16pm PT
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The 12 month average ending with January 2015 took a big jump over the previous 12 month average because January, 2015 was considerably higher than January, 2014.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Feb 27, 2015 - 02:21pm PT
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The 12 month average took a big jump over the previous 12 month average because January 2015 was considerably higher than January, 2014.
I've seen one regression analysis where somebody tried to forecast what NASA's February 2015 number will be (high, they think). I suppose there will be betting about the ice minimum this year as well.
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dave729
Trad climber
Western America
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Feb 27, 2015 - 03:46pm PT
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Betting on something where the numbers can be changed by those who
have financial and professional points to win? Wow! That is so lame.
Feb 2015
Coyote races a struggling Coast Guard icebreaker across frozen Boston harbor.
And wins!
https://twitter.com/JasonGraziadei/status/571101516431372289
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 27, 2015 - 05:22pm PT
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Betting on something where the numbers can be changed by those who
have financial and professional points to win? Wow! That is so lame.
listening to some anonymous troll opine? Wow! that's so lame.
not knowing the troll, we have no idea what axe is being ground...
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Feb 27, 2015 - 06:31pm PT
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^^^And yet the global temp average keeps on rising.^^^
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 28, 2015 - 10:01am PT
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Science is a perpetual work in progress, so what are mysteries at one time are often explained later on, often the explanations come as a result of trying to understand something else. And while we often wished to be able to go in a straight line from our current understanding to an explanation of some curious fact, it more often the case that the path is like that of traversing a “twisty little maze” with dead ends, wrong turns, back tracing, and all that.
But then, if we are ultimately on the right path, we might realize that we’ve explained something that we had once been interested in, while we were doing something else.
Critics of the century long explanation of the Earth’s surface temperature being due to the CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere often point to the rapid increase of the surface temperature in the early part of the 20th century as evidence that the CO2 concentrations aren’t the only thing going on (the more extreme critics cite that as evidence against the idea that CO2 concentrations have anything to do with the surface temperature, but that position is physically untenable). Climate scientists would agree that natural variability has a role, but this leads to the question: how big a role? and also, ultimately, to what drives the “natural variability.” Just how natural is it?
Climate modeling has become more and more sophisticated, and both the precision and the accuracy of models allow scientists to compare the model outputs with the observations. The models contain our very best scientific ideas of the physical drivers of climate, and these models predict what we should be observing for a large number of variables, surface temperature being only one. As the models “get better” at predicting, they also will disagree with the observations. This disagreement cannot only happen when both the observational precision and accuracy and the model precision and accuracy are of the same order. That the current state of both the observations and the models are, currently, of the same order is a remarkable testimony to climate science.
A recent paper in Science makes a case for the role that the Pacific and Atlantic ocean oscillations play in the surface temperature.
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/347/6225/988.full
Science 347, 988 (2015)
DOI: 10.1126/science.1257856
Atlantic and Pacific multidecadal oscillations and Northern Hemisphere temperatures
Byron A. Steinman, Michael E. Mann, Sonya K. Miller
The recent slowdown in global warming has brought into question the reliability of climate model projections of future temperature change and has led to a vigorous debate over whether this slowdown is the result of naturally occurring, internal variability or forcing external to Earth’s climate system. To address these issues, we applied a semi-empirical approach that combines climate observations and model simulations to estimate Atlantic- and Pacific-based internal multidecadal variability (termed “AMO” and “PMO,” respectively). Using this method, the AMO and PMO are found to explain a large proportion of internal variability in Northern Hemisphere mean temperatures. Competition between a modest positive peak in the AMO and a substantially negative-trending PMO are seen to produce a slowdown or “false pause” in warming of the past decade.
In a "Perspectives" piece appearing in the same issue introducing this paper, Ben Booth makes a number of good points regarding the work. The summary figure in that piece is a good one:
The two graphs superimposed on the oceans show the temperature anomaly due to the ocean oscillations as a function of time. The warming trends at the early part of the 20th century as well as the cooling 1950s-1960s and the recent "hiatus" have an explanation in these derived ocean variabilities.
The evidence is the result of both improvements in the surface temperature time series and the modeling. How these values are extracted in the analysis is something we could discuss at length.
The physical cause of these ocean oscillations is certainly something that will be a focus of research.
Figure 3 from the paper:
Fig. 3 Semi-empirical estimate of AMO, PMO, and NMO [the multidecadal component of internal Northern Hemisphere mean temperature variability] based on target region regression using historical climate model realizations.
(A) CMIP5-GISS. (B) CMIP5-AIE. (C) CMIP-All. In (A) to (C), blue, AMO; green, PMO; and black, NMO. Bivariate regression-based approximation of NMO (red) strongly correlates (R2 = 0.86/0.88/0.91 for CMIP5-All/CMIP5-GISS, CMIP5-AIE, respectively) with semi-empirical NMO estimate (black). 95% confidence limits of the AMO, PMO, and NMO CMIP5-All means were determined by using the ensemble of target region mean series resulting from bootstrap resampling (Fig. 1) and are shown as colored shading.
is discussed in the paragraph:
Our analysis shows the NMO to be decreasing at the end of the series (Fig. 3 and figs. S5 and S6). Mann et al. (42) assessed the recent decrease in the NMO in terms of a negative-trending AMO contribution. However, we reach a somewhat different conclusion in the present study, finding that the recent decrease in the NMO is instead a result of a sharply decreasing PMO (with a relatively flat AMO contribution). That observation is consistent with recent findings that the anomalous slowing of warming over the past decade is tied to subsurface heat burial in the tropical Pacific and a tendency for persistent “La Niña”–like conditions (43–46). Our analysis attributes this trend to internal variability as a consequence of the failure of the CMIP5 models to identify a recent forced trend of this nature. However, there is paleoclimate evidence suggesting that a La Niña–like response might arise from positive radiative forcing (47), and the possibility remains that state-of-the-art climate models fail to capture such a dynamical response to anthropogenic radiative forcing.
which highlights the idea that as we get better at predicting, we also learn more about those things that are not currently a part of our predictions. This is the incremental improvement of our understanding where we become more sensitive to the subtle aspects of the physical system, a result of our improved ability to predict.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Feb 28, 2015 - 10:24am PT
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Some of the authors of your presented paper , Ed, are discredited and have no more credibility than Patchauri-the IPCC Chief- currently on bail for criminal charges in his native India. See TGT's link. Why should we put any trust in any of the interpretations of the multi hundreds of billions of dollars climate change industry when it is patently obvious that their conclusions were foregone from the get go? A naked attempt for subjugation of the populace through taxation and overly burdensome regulations.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Feb 28, 2015 - 11:42am PT
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I expect many of you will not like the point of this story. To me, it rang true. Enjoy.
From WUWT
A very odd thing happened in Science. Turns out a famous weatherman has been forecasting highs in the 60s then 70s for New York City all winter long. But the temperature never rose above the single digits, teens, twenties, and thirties.
One day a writer at the New York Post wrote an article telling people not to trust the weatherman, who, it turned out, had issued a prediction for the following day for a “High of 80!”
Climatologists stationed at NASA on the Upper West Side were incensed that a non-scientist would interfere with Science. So the climatologists spoke with the weatherman, who said he was basing his predictions on a sophisticated computer model. The weatherman admitted his difficulties, but said his model would have performed great if only he had better measures of surface snow cover.
This reasoning wholly convinced the climatologists who held a press conference at which they insisted, “Whoever disagrees with this weatherman is a science denier. The weatherman is using a sophisticated computer model, which can only get better since we have provided the weatherman with New & Improved! measures of surface snow cover.”
Cowed, the press skittered away, went home and put on their shorts to await the promised warmth. But the next day the high was only 16oF. And for the next week it was bitterly cold, yet the weatherman went on predicting a heatwave. This raised eyebrows, but since nobody wanted to be called a denier, they didn’t insist the weatherman was wrong.
The climatologists suspected, however, that something wasn’t quite right. So they called another meeting with the weatherman. He admitted he had incorporated the New & Improved! surface snow cover measurements, but that hadn’t helped much. And besides, there wasn’t anything wrong after all. The model was still great—better than great—but it was natural variability that was to blame for the wayward observations. “Nobody,” he said, “Can anticipate natural variability.”
Again, the climatologists were convinced by this argument and they called another press conference. “The model this weatherman is using is correct,” they said. “It is really a quite excellent model. But natural variability interfered with observations.”
A man in the audience, a non-tenured engineering professor, was perplexed. He was bold enough to ask, “But that doesn’t make any sense. Natural variability is what the weather is. What you’re really saying is that the model does a poor job of representing the weather.”
“That is false,” the climatologists said. “The model is terrific. From whom do you receive your funding?”
The engineering professor said, “Well, partly from a company that manufactures a specialized product. But what does that matter? Your model said the temperature would be high and instead it was low. That can only mean the model is wrong.”
Now the engineering professor didn’t know it, but his Dean was watching the press conference. The Dean was embarrassed that he had a science denier in his department and the next day he moved to have the young professor terminated. A reporter (shivering like mad and dressed in a t-shirt) heard about the firing and asked the climatologists for their opinion.
“That this man was fired is proof of his incompetence. He wasn’t even a meteorologist. He obviously had a conflict of interest by receiving money from companies that might benefit from his work. This proves the model the weatherman is using is a good one.” And the reporter believed.
Meanwhile, a team of scientists argued that the model didn’t work and they offered a suggestion why it might be busted. They published their thoughts in a science journal, which caught the attention of the small fraction of the public who were tired of having to wear skimpy clothes in frigid temperatures merely to prove they were not science deniers.
The climatologists quickly called another conference to assure the public that all was well in hand. “The team’s suggestion of why the weatherman’s model is broken can’t possibly be right. Therefore the weatherman’s model must be a good one. Only science deniers can deny this.”
The weatherman continued predicting hot air, but only cold air was to be seen. Some in the public grumbled louder. So the climatologists contacted the state authorities. The governor and state legislature were brought in, as were educational, union, and business leaders. All begin promoting the climatologists’ message that the weatherman was right and the weather wrong. The president of the United States eventually came to the rescue with an official list of Science Deniers. He said that those who love Science should “go after” the deniers.
Which they did. And then everybody died of pneumonia.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 28, 2015 - 12:00pm PT
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Some of the authors of your presented paper , Ed, are discredited and have no more credibility than Patchauri-the IPCC Chief- currently on bail for criminal charges in his native India. See TGT's link. Why should we put any trust in any of the interpretations of the multi hundreds of billions of dollars climate change industry when it is patently obvious that their conclusions were foregone from the get go? A naked attempt for subjugation of the populace through taxation and overly burdensome regulations.
except, of course, that you could read the paper (and the Perspective) and level any scientific criticism you have in a very specific answer.
Mann is not discredited, his science is out there for you to look at in detail and to check independently. You find things wrong, you post them, the authors reply. Happens right here on STForum when someone has a quantitative error, they fess up (at least the scientists do) offer an explanation of what they did wrong (if they did) and we move on, with the corrected information.
There is no appeal to authority, one way or the other. Starting a smear campaign on baseless charges, innuendo and allegations that have failed legal challenges and have been thrown out in court as groundless do not alter Mann's credibility. His science has stood up to scrutiny, he has a track record of producing good science.
You can throw that out and replace it with the sort of fantasies exemplified by the sort of thing EdwardT posts above (if you care to waste time on the stuff anonymous trolls post). But it is a poor substitute to the very good work that goes into the science to provide a better way of explaining what is happening.
The conclusion that the ocean decadal variability is not "forgone," and is still very much an active area of research. It is, and you missed this in your reading of my post above, apparently, exactly because we have predictions that should be as good as that variability that we know something else is going on. The flip side of that is the fact that the models are good enough to give us some insight into just what is going on. That is their role.
do you have any reasonable criticism of the article? I believe is available without charge to read on the Science link I posted above. If you are serious about understanding it, you might also take a look at the supplementary information.
In the very unlikely event that you would attempt to reproduce the study, we could talk that through too... but that is probably too much for you.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Feb 28, 2015 - 01:41pm PT
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One day in the 80s climate scientists were discussing climate change.
A denier posted some bs and was paid highly by oil companies.
In the 90s climate change was ever more clear so the denier worked harder at his bs and got it published in the WSJ and was paid highly by big coal.
In the 2000s climate science evidence was overwhelming so 100 deniers paid for 100 times as much bs on faux media and were followed by millions of easily swayed nonscientists.
In the 2010s 1000 deniers were elected to political office, many paid for by lobbyists hiding behind dark funding pacs, who also paid obvious trolls to post their mindless drivel on countless internet websites. At this point their denientism has become a trite religion for the lazy minded.
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