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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Aug 21, 2011 - 08:32pm PT
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Yeah, lots of wisdom. People in general aren't saints, so when all sorts of shyte happens, we just say, "Well, shyte happens," and that's all we need to say. End of story; nothing more to see here; move along.
The really wise part is that it's an explanation and a justification all rolled up into one. Pretty slick! I like it!
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Mimi
climber
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Aug 21, 2011 - 10:33pm PT
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Bwana, you keep using the 1000 bolts to Horse Chute line. That is your own quote, isn't it? I don't see it anywhere else in the literature.
Bwana:
"The really wise part is that it's an explanation and a justification all rolled up into one. Pretty slick! I like it!"
Yeah, you're begging for spin right about now.
WB, the analogy doesn't hold up for one simple reason. Kauk had mastered climbing by the time he'd made those ethical choices. Later to be reversed. Bwana and Mark were as green as Kermit when they left the ground.
From the back cover of the Book of Dik; "Though they have prepared for every contingency, they figure their route will take less than a month. The error of this assumption becomes apparent in the first ten feet of the climb." Sounds like wholesale incompetence to me. Any of you folks have a better explanation?
Bwana has said that his editor wrote this but we think it was straight from the heart and their editor picked up on it. These guys were idiots. Just so there's no doubt, also from Dik: "the author assumes full responsibility for the accuracy of all facts and quotations as cited in this book."
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 21, 2011 - 10:39pm PT
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"Though they have prepared for every contingency, they figure their route will take less than a month. The error of this assumption becomes apparent in the first ten feet of the climb." Sounds like wholesale incompetence to me. Any of you folks have a better explanation?
They were doing what Harding and Caldwell did on the Dawn Wall? Or Robbins and Peterson on Tis-sa-Ack? Bridwell and Bard on Bushido? Or the many others who've made similar misjudgments? Most of us, in fact. Underestimate how much time, food or equipment is needed, suffer a bit (or a lot), learn from the experience, gain a good campfire story. And it doesn't just happen to the inexperienced.
Probably nearly every first ascent on El Capitan, and many subsequent ascents, took longer than forecast, sometimes significantly longer.
The climb may have been ponderously pachydermically slow, in poor style, and (TBA) using unacceptable techniques. We can argue about that, even when more facts are finally in. But simply underestimating the time a climb will take seems no big deal.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Aug 21, 2011 - 10:53pm PT
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"Though they have prepared for every contingency, they figure their route will take less than a month. The error of this assumption becomes apparent in the first ten feet of the climb." Sounds like wholesale incompetence to me. Any of you folks have a better explanation? So this is what it is all about? This is why Steve Grossman and Mimi are so upset?
All because Richard and Mark estimated that they would complete the route in 30 days and instead it took them 40 days!
Got that everyone? If you're putting up a new route and it takes you 25% more time than you first estimated, you the the Steve Grossman and Mimi Seal of Incompetence (TM) permanently affixed to your forehead.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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Aug 21, 2011 - 10:53pm PT
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This thread is worthless without PowerPoints.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Aug 21, 2011 - 10:55pm PT
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They were doing what Harding and Caldwell did on the Dawn Wall? Or Robbins and Peterson on Tis-sa-Ack? Bridwell and Bard on Bushido? Or the many others who've made similar misjudgments? Most of us, in fact. Underestimate how much time, food or equipment is needed, suffer a bit (or a lot), learn from the experience, gain a good campfire story. And it doesn't just happen to the inexperienced.
The climb may have been ponderously pachydermically slow, in poor style, and (TBA) using unacceptable techniques. We can argue about that, even when more facts are finally in. But simply underestimating the time a climb will take seems no big deal.
I also thought immediately of the Dawn Wall.
But I'm sure that the Steve and Mimi Lynch Mob would have hung Harding and Caldwell from the first available tree on the summit following their ascent, if there hadn't been so much media around.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Aug 21, 2011 - 10:57pm PT
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Is Mimi this crazy and irrational in person? Or just on the Internet?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 21, 2011 - 11:03pm PT
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Mimi is a delightful, lively, smart, professional woman, but does have some firm opinions and a liking for argument. Cajun blood, perhaps.
(I'd say she's cute, too, but Steve is much bigger than me.)
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Mimi
climber
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Aug 21, 2011 - 11:19pm PT
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Funny how strong opinion coming out of a woman seems to wrinkle your guy's sticks beyond recognition. You anonymous pukes, like graniteclimber, can take a hike. I did my best while climbing in the Valley and elsewhere. I have every right to expect the same and will say whatever the hell I please. Do you try to suppress sports writers if they say something bad but true about your favorite team? Sheesh!
Scott, drop the Steve angle. You are so arrogant and deluded. Get a grip. While you may be the sage of the new generation, I don't know too many people from back then that don't think you're way behind on this one. After the way you over-reacted to the whole Growing Up climb, you've got a lot of nerve. I hardly think I'll stand down on your prompt. You have slim to no moral authority in any ethical argument since you resorted to just about every tactic imaginable. Right?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 21, 2011 - 11:32pm PT
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How do you feel about Growing Up, Mimi?
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Aug 21, 2011 - 11:41pm PT
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Pete just got the pun of the day award.
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Mimi
climber
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Aug 21, 2011 - 11:42pm PT
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I'll never grow up.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Aug 22, 2011 - 12:00am PT
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Funny how strong opinion coming out of a woman seems to wrinkle your guy's sticks beyond recognition.
We'll have to take your word that it's "Mimi" posting under her own anme, not that it changes anything. You two have posted the same "strong opinions" under Grossman's name and gotten the same response.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Aug 22, 2011 - 12:03am PT
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Why isn't anyone listening to linshan, the Social climber from
putian,fujian?
Who cares about some prehistoric nail up? She's totally hot !
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Aug 22, 2011 - 12:11am PT
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bite me wyner
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 22, 2011 - 12:31am PT
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Kevin- What makes you think that two guys who can't claim a single, consensus-rated 100' lead old school A-3 or harder before leaving the ground are going to put up the hardest route on El Cap? Do you really believe that?
Eight placements in a row over on the Jolly Roger warranted only an A4+ grade and this was done at the same time around the corner. It will be very interesting to see if Ammon and Kait run into the like on WOS or whether the route was ever actually A5 to begin with. Richard will say, of course, (and already has preemptively) that the route was lowered by others. Without that ultimate. elitist A5 grade, no slide show tour.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 22, 2011 - 12:51am PT
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We'll soon see...
The JR was drilled up by Duane Raleigh and Tom Cosgriff before it even saw a second ascent so I'm not sure what your standard of comparison would be in the hooking arena. Eight placements in a row even you can comprehend...
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Aug 22, 2011 - 12:55am PT
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Mimi is wonderful person.
After reading their posts here on Supertopo, I'll never believe that about Mimi, or Steve Grossman.
Wonderful people just dont' behave the way they do, even on the Internet. Gross and low class. Grossman and Grosswoman too. Truth in advertising.
Not that I'm claiming to be a wonderful person myself.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 22, 2011 - 01:10am PT
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Everything on-sight to this point Scott. You know that.
I don't really feel like I've missed out on anything so far.
How about you?
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 22, 2011 - 01:33am PT
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Calling any route on El Cap as the hardest is all relative.
One party could do one but not the other.
One guy could aid climb some route and the fail on a free pitch on another route.
What's all the hoopla anyways.
El Cap is just another side show on the worlds stage.
I remember the 80 year old woman who had to walk 5 miles every day to collect firewood in Africa just so she could cook to eat .......
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