What is "Mind?"

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Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2017 - 08:48am PT
Thing is I think it's fantastic that so many of us are even talking about this. Seems like we understand or follow or are keen on the other fellow's ideas relative to how close they run to the natural way our minds organize things in our life. If you are one who naturally like proofs and facts and figures - that's what you most value. But I do think that the subjective adventures are largely misunderstood in this regards.

For me, I remember growing up being hauled to church every Sunday and when I was nine or ten looking around at people praying and so forth and thinking: I have no idea what any of this is. None. I had zero natural feel for spirits or Holy Ghosts or God or any of what I could not see or feel or touch. It felt like some strange game of charades and I was restless in the pew and was always seeking some excuse to escape bible study and Sunday school (or all school) and to get outside. The whole thing felt suffocating and I felt like a faker even being there.

Then years later I used to hitchhike from my hometown in Upland (So Cal) up to Mt. Baldy and tromp around the mountains (I must have been about 15) and somewhere in there I found the Mt. Baldy Zen Center. I don't remember how I ever ended up there, sitting on a cushion for a two day meditation retreat. I think I was 18.

As an ADD kid with atomic energy it was the first time in my life I had ever slowed down and found myself present in my own life. Nobody was telling me to believe anything or read scripture, and the old Japanese master didn't care if I was there or not. There was no worship or devotion per se and the people there were as different as folks you'd find in an airport.

Every after, every time I paused and settled it always felt like a moment of truth, even when I hated being there. I can say the same thing about wall climbing, which was torture and drudgery most of the time but it never felt like a sham or a model or representation of something else, or some effect of something more fundamental. If there was something real out there I wanted to know it directly so far as I could, as opposed to having to think about it or parse it out into components.

Then there is the business of those spinning atoms, which many hold are the source of me being aware in order to see them (the atoms). Here we have a chicken or the egg situation. If looked at in terms of linear time, the atoms seemingly came first. If looked at in terms of timelessness, there IS no first. If both linear time and timelessness are somehow both at play here, we have a hellava situation. Whatever the case, time has to be dealt with.

I look at myself, getting older by the day, and it feels ridiculous to deny linear time. Equally absurd is to deny the direct experience of timelessness, however you might get there, even while some yell that "you only think that is what is going on," an odd remark since the absence of thinking is normally required in this regard.

Either way we push on. And as Dingus just said, we probably agree on more than we are letting on.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Dec 20, 2017 - 09:09am PT
If you are one who naturally like proofs and facts and figures - that's what you most value.


No. You can naturally like proofs and facts and figures but value other things higher, like honesty, love, charity, and kindness.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Dec 20, 2017 - 11:38am PT
Very nice commentary, John. Thanks. I, too, remember those days at Sunday School and church services. Couldn't wait to get out of there. Off to college and I never looked back. But I feel no animosity towards religion, having seen works of kindness and known very good people who were devoted to guiding the young and innocent and sometimes disturbed.

Whatever the case, time has to be dealt with

It's about time! I attach my girdle and sword, and go forth amongst the chronons and tachyons, fearless but cautious.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2017 - 01:32pm PT
I was actually keen on math years ago but what little knowledge I had is long gone. But I always remembered teachers saying that one didn't need to factor in time to do maths - at least some maths - and I've heard that bandied about amongst physicists as well.

So to John and others, how DOES time fit into your work?
jogill

climber
Colorado
Dec 20, 2017 - 03:16pm PT
Mostly in the elementary subjects I research, time is just a continuous variable, designated by t, and usually restricted to an interval t∈[0,1]. Of course, in D=RT time is actually time (duration).

However, in a recent note I gave a silly example of how one could interpret time as a complex variable,u+iv: consider a projectile arcing through space with an initial velocity given. At a real point in time, t, it has reached a specific point in space. Now imagine a solid vertical wall at that point that the projectile impacts, then drops to the ground. The time, T, that it takes as it falls is of course an imaginary duration, so that both pieces of information can be expressed simultaneously as t+iT.

Time as a point and time as a duration. For example, I will arrive at home at 4 and then it will take me 2 hours to complete a task.

All pretty trivial stuff. However Henri Bergson was quite serious in his assessment of time as duration and more a product of mind than a purely physical phenomenon. I invite the philosophers here to dig into this and explain Bergson's ideas. I haven't read his book.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Dec 20, 2017 - 04:12pm PT
Do a search for "c. elegans decision-making"
I'm on it, MH2. Good suggestion.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
Dec 20, 2017 - 04:15pm PT
So to John and others, how DOES time fit into your work? -- Largo

For starters JL & JG, what does exist mean in this statement?

Future events exist, she said, they just don’t exist now -- Jenann Ismael


Mathematicians talk of existence ...

All of space-time-matter-energy is already fixed?

And Moose D, if future events exist, where does this put free will?
jogill

climber
Colorado
Dec 20, 2017 - 04:48pm PT
^^^ At first glance it looks circular and spurious.


Dingus, The lady is a philosopher whose areas are metaphysics and the philosophy of physics, as you probably are aware. I'll read what she has to say, but the block universe concept is not uncontroversial. I have no opinions about it at present. It would seem to lock into place absolutely everything, a psychic's delight. More later. Thanks.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2017 - 04:55pm PT
https://philosophynow.org/issues/48/Henri_Bergson_and_the_Perception_of_Time

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/bergson/

https://www.academia.edu/604832/Husserl_and_bergson_on_time_and_consciousness

The New Bergson

Editor - John Mullarkey
ISBN - 0 7190 5553 9
Publisher - Manchester University Press

I think the last book is probably the source since it takes account of modern theory and so forth.

I read a bunch of Bergson during my first year of grad school but looking back on it now I really wasn't up for it. So if I go back into this stuff now it will really be for the first time. One thing for sure - his ideas clash with a block universe model, which is enough to put off many readers. The other thing is I doubt "duration" is testable by normal means but who knows. The guy did win a Nobel Prize and they don't just give those away.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
Dec 20, 2017 - 04:57pm PT
jgill,

yes, kind of my take. And what are the assumptions behind any math?
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
Dec 20, 2017 - 05:32pm PT
MooseD and Eyonkee,

both of you seem to bring in ideas from the field afar to judge free will. My way is to look locally first which neither of you seem to do.

A local look takes note that very likely the brain operates on cellular circuits with neurons we call biological neural nets BNN. Most importantly BNN defy any predictor such as the classical derivative forms we get from Newtonian mechanics & circuits. I think I saw a study that when given seemingly the same input? they do not produce the same output all the time, yet the output is not random. It could be said their output is highly parameter sensitive -- non-linear. Their output is radically affected by a slight change of salt concentration in the brain -- in a recent ScAm article.

I gather your take is BNN are determined but not predictable.

Here is kind of an Occam's Razor argument?:

If over the course brain evolution, determinism was the case, then why did the brain evolve so as to make/gives us choices? Figuring out options would seem to be wasted energy?

As for what kind of brain to have, I would rather have one that was determined to make the best choices for me rather than touting it had free will and therefore no particular choice could be rationed.

MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Dec 20, 2017 - 05:35pm PT
healyje: Except nothing could be farther from the truth.

Show me the truth. What is mind? What is awareness?

The results is “mu.” It’s always been “mu,” MH2 & Healyje. There’s nothing but “mu.” (I’m telling the truth.) There’s nothing there, and yet—there appear to be infinitely variegated manifestations. (Ambiguity, irony, and uncertainty are discomforting.)

Dingus,
You don’t have, or haven’t experienced, anything that you would call equanimity? Loving-kindness? Compassion? Joy? Do these things strike you improbable, silly, or naive?

DMT,
I really don’t know what I see. You claim you see electrons. Show me one, would you? You know, something I can *directly* perceive through at least one of my five senses? Electrons are concepts for “things” we don’t really know what they are.


To carry oneself forward and experience myriad things is delusion. That myriad things come forth and experience themselves is awakening.
(Dogen)
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
Dec 20, 2017 - 05:54pm PT
Bergson -- In the duration, there is no juxtaposition of events; therefore there is no mechanistic causality. It is in the duration that we can speak of the experience of freedom.

Take a look MooseD. The concept of multiplicity. Somehow the way we weave the present into the past frees us of determinism. a Trick of the mind? Can there possibly be a mental way around determinism?


And Largo, would Bergson's take on duration be a 1st person account?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2017 - 06:05pm PT
Now, now Mike, surely we know SOMETHING.

MU........

See how much traction that gets.

When I first started reading Dogen I wanted to pull my hair out.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Dec 20, 2017 - 06:15pm PT
HFCS, this is for you, in particular. This is from Homo Deus, by Yuval Harari. Chapter 8.
To the best of our scientific understanding, determinism and randomness have divided the entire cake between them, not even leaving a crumb for ‘freedom’. The sacred word ‘freedom’ turns out to be, just like ‘soul’, a hollow term empty of any discernible meaning. Free will exists only in the imaginative stories we humans have invented.

The last nail in freedom’s coffin is provided by the theory of evolution. Just as evolution cannot be squared with eternal souls, neither can it swallow the idea of free will. For if humans are free, how could natural selection have shaped them?... However, if an animal freely chooses what to eat and with whom to mate, then natural selection has nothing to work with.

... If by free will we mean the ability to act according to our desires, then yes humans have free will, but so do chimpanzees, dogs and parrots...

... I feel a particular wish welling up within me because this is the feeling created by the biochemical processes in my brain. These processes might be deterministic or random, but they are not free.
I think Harari's got it just right, and he couldn't be more clear on where he stands on the free will debate. But, Harari's just punter...
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2017 - 06:18pm PT
Dingus McGee, I have no idea whatsoever.

Truth be told I was so overmatched by Bergson when I tackled his stuff (I must have been about 20) that all I could rattle off were rote answers cribbed from somebody else. I highly doubt that many took the time to wrestle the guy down because his material was so unconventional for a field on the cusp of logical positivism ("scientific philosophy"). I know Bertrand Russel hated his stuff. So give me a bit to bone up on the guy. He's not a quick read - meaning you start with the easy summations, jump into the source material once you get a feel for the dude, then look at the reviews, criticisms, and so forth to see how his stuff shakes out.

With some of these guys, like Kant, Heidegger and especially Whitehead, the drift feels vague and impossible till you work or stumble into their perspective and finally get it. It makes you appreciate people like Nagle and Searle who are comprehensible from the start.

My sense of Bergson is that he's working off deep intuitions, and you know how slippery that is. But taking a flyer on this one -- "In the duration, there is no juxtaposition of events; therefore there is no mechanistic causality" - this issues from dumping first or efficient causes, whereby this does not "cause" that in the normal sense of the word, since before and after are artificial constructs or overlays of linear thinking. The task, IMO, is to square that with things like fossil records and the fact that I don't seem to be getting younger.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 20, 2017 - 06:29pm PT
These two quotes from an overview of Bergson, Vitalism and his 'Perception Of Time' together really sums up a lot of what's been going on culturally for the last several hundred years relative to the rise of science and it's impact on religion and philosophy.

The mechanistic view alone is singularly ill-equipped to understand the immense variety and depth of human experience, to say nothing of the more subtle aspects of the phenomenon of consciousness. Whenever any given outlook – scientific, philosophical, political, economic or religious – becomes closed and dogmatic, it sooner or later has to undergo its own creative evolution and become more open to new ideas and insights. The fact that a mechanistic approach is essential for many aspects of scientific research does not mean that everything in life can be accounted for in reductionist, nothing-but mechanistic terms.

Bergson believed that mental and spiritual aspects of human experience were greatly neglected as a result of focussing so single-mindedly on the physical and material. He once speculated on how things might have developed had modern science devoted more attention to exploring the non-material realm. He believed that we would by now have had a psychology of which today we can form no idea, any more than before Galileo people could have imagined what our physics would be like. A biology quite different to ours would also have emerged: “A vitalist biology which would have sought, behind the sensible forms of living beings, the inward invisible force of which the sensible forms are the manifestations. On this force we have today taken no hold precisely because our science of mind is in its infancy ...” He went on to say: “Together with this vitalist biology there would have arisen a medical practice which would have sought to remedy directly the insufficiencies of the vital force: it would have aimed at the cause and not the effects, at the centre instead of at the periphery ...”

There has always been a backlash to the growing influence of science which has taken many forms over time. But for myself, I find the core of that backlash, in whatever guise, always revolves around a perception that science is intent on dethroning of human beings from their exalted next-to-god status and casting us down among animals. That it insults our inherent uniqueness and strives to wring out all the special muchness which separates us from mere beasts: our beauty, our genius, our art, our love, and our special place among god's creations. Centuries of hysteria in other words.

And that hysteria is always accompanied by the claim there is, there has to be, something ineffable and incorporeal which distills, embodies and codifies all that is special about us and wrong about science. That science is essentially an attack on humanity precisely because it fails to recognize our [very special] spirit, soul, or other immaterial life force. And that opposition to science has become in enshrined in dogma in a lot of philosophy, popular culture and now we see it increasingly being wielded in politics. It's certainly on display here in this brain / mind thread among those who argue mere mechanics (bestial meat) couldn't possibly give rise to all that is special about being us - i.e. mind. Hell, the very notion is an insult to our [timeless] beauty and genius.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2017 - 06:48pm PT
Not so fast, Healje. If you want to wrangle Bergson, glossing a review is small beer, moreso jamming it into some anti-science beef of your own making.

Bergson is working off deep intuitions, not grinding an ax on Type A physicalism. Moreover, the fear of dethroning some spirit world is hardly in keeping with most people who feel physicalism is logically incoherent at some level, or question the verity of a fundamentalist fealty to same. And many of those folk are science types as well. The notion that staunch physicalists are defenders to real science is also a stretch IMO.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Dec 20, 2017 - 07:09pm PT
Moose,

Like Largo's pursuit of mind, your interest in determinism leads nowhere.


From the Ed link to the yanqui link to the Stanford site:

How could we ever decide whether our world is deterministic or not? Given that some philosophers and some physicists have held firm views—with many prominent examples on each side—one would think that it should be at least a clearly decidable question. Unfortunately, even this much is not clear, and the epistemology of determinism turns out to be a thorny and multi-faceted issue.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 20, 2017 - 07:21pm PT
Sure a lot of folks have and do embrace the physicalism of science, mainly because logic and reason make much of it undeniable. However, that just as often comes with limits and endless caveats with regard to god, soul, spirit, or other ineffable [vital] forces - all that which separated us from the beasts. Couch it however you want, but to claim otherwise is a matter of just fooling yourself given you're one of the main proponents of that view. And it's not a matter of painting anyone a fundamentalist as no one typing on a keyboard or cellphone screen is doing a blanket denial of science, but make no mistake, the ongoing backlash against science in its current guise is reaching new heights of late in the hands of the fringe right and a not insignificant part of that is still driven by religion and philosophy.
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